Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held by video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Gareth Davies.

Storm Christoph

Gareth Davies AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with Denbighshire County Council about repairing infrastructure damaged by storm Christoph? OQ57516

Julie James AC: Thank you, Gareth. Denbighshire were successful in their application for £440,000-worth of works for post-storm repairs to flood and drainage assets as a result of storm Christoph at various locations. Post-storm repairs were 100 per cent funded and the grant award of the works were subject to technical appraisal, ensuring flood funding eligibility criteria.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. While I understand that there are processes to be followed, the fact is that, a year after the devastation, my constituents are still without a vital road link between Trefnant and Tremeirchion, and two local communities, essentially, remain isolated from one another and there's no endin sight, which is hugely frustrating.Minister, will you ensure that any funding requests are prioritised and that processes are accelerated and that you do all you can to ensure that the historic Llannerch bridge is restored as quickly as possible?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Gareth. I appreciate the difficulties caused to the local road network, but it is the responsibility of the local authority to maintain and ensure that resilience of those assets. We haven't yet had a funding bid from Denbighshire regarding Llannerch bridge. A sum of £18,491,000 was awarded from the resilient roads fund in 2021-22 to local authorities in Wales for works to address disruptions caused by severe weather to the highway network, particularly the public transport network, and that included £5.3 million for schemes in north Wales.
Local authorities have been invited to apply for funding from the resilient roads fund in 2022-23 for schemes to address disruptions caused by severe weather to the highway network. So, basically, the short-form answer is: we haven't had a funding application from the council yet. I'm very happy, of course, to look at that as quickly as we can do once we have that application. We've not yet had it, so I'd encourage you to contact the local authority and understand from them what exactly is happening with that.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Infrastructure across several places in north Wales has been affected by recent storms, including the bridge mentioned before at Tremeirchion in Denbighshire. Newbridge in Wrexham keeps getting mentioned and there's also a landslide in Ffrith, in Flintshire, which is estimated to cost £3.8 million. When such natural events occur, they are often with very short notice and devastating consequences, which can be expensive to repair for one local authority. Would Welsh Government look at setting up an emergency capital fund for such repairs following natural disasters?

Julie James AC: Well, Carolyn, the way that that works at the moment is, obviously, we allocate an unhypothecated capital grant to local authorities as part of their overall funding settlement. We try very hard not to hypothecate funding in the way that you suggest, because obviously what would happen is that would be taken off the overall unhypothecated grant and held centrally. We don't think that is the best way to do it. In point of fact, we've assisted, as I just said to Gareth, local authorities with nearly £18.5 million in storm damage repairs over the last winter. Also, from the revenue point of view, we also have the emergency financial assistance scheme, which is the revenue funding that kicks in in particularly severe climatic conditions. So, we have a number of schemes available to assist with both revenue and capital, but local authorities would, I think, be the first to say that they didn't want more hypothecation inside what is a finite capital grants system.

The Impact of Climate Change in Local Communities

Paul Davies AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government raising awareness of the impact of climate change in local communities? OQ57498

Julie James AC: Diolch, Paul. The Welsh Government is fully committed to addressing the causes and impacts of climate change. We have raised awareness as part of our recent COP Cymru and Wales Climate Week events, and we continue to work closely with local authorities to support communities to understand and to address the climate emergency.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. You may be aware of the work of the CHERISH project, which consists of a team of archaeologists, geographers and geologists who study the effects of climate change on coastal and maritime heritage in Wales, and indeed in Ireland. The project is currently running an exhibition at Oriel y Parc in St David's in my constituency, looking at the effects of climate change in the local area, between now and the end of February. I'm sure you'll agree with me that this kind of activity is so important in terms of explaining the impact of climate change on our local areas. And so, can you tell me what the Welsh Government is doing to support and raise awareness of specific projects like this across Wales?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Paul. I am aware of the exhibition you have because I am a proud member of the mailing list for Oriel y Parc there—a place I often visit on my holidays—so I was aware of it. I'm actually hoping to go down and see the exhibition shortly. Yes, of course, we're very keen to assist with all such exhibitions and to publicising them—and very happy to join with you in publicising that one—across Wales, as we work with community groups in a number of ways, both highlighting events from around the world that can be brought back here to Wales, and indeed, actually, in assisting Welsh scientists and community groups to go abroad with theirs, virtually at the moment of course, but to go abroad with their very good ideas. And one of the things that I was particularly pleased with with COP Cymru and Wales Climate Week was the number of contributors we had from around the world as a result of our membership of the Under2 alliance, with what are called sub-national states. So, we had people contributing to that from around the world, and indeed we were able to showcase Wales's community efforts, such as the one you've just mentioned, in that as well. So, very happy to join with you in both commending it and publicising it.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I just wanted to talk about heating in domestic homes. We know that homes are responsible for 27 per cent of all energy consumed and 9 per cent of all emissions in Wales. And with just 10 per cent of homes being built in the last 20 years, our housing stock is amongst the oldest and least efficient in Europe. Just focusing on homes in rural areas, and in mid and west Wales, and those that are heated from oil, we know that more than 33 per cent of homes in Ceredigion are reliant on oil to heat their homes. The Office for National Statistics said the county faces the highest increase in fuel bills of any area in mainland United Kingdom in the past year—£863 on average. Without price regulation, as we know, and without a greener alternative, those reliant on oil are facing the sharp end of this cost-of-living energy crisis. I just wondered if you could outline what measures have been considered to support those homes reliant on oil now, and to support those households and businesses to look at transitioning to greener energy in the longer term? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Jane. We absolutely are aware of the real cost-of-living crisis, particularly for people on off-grid oil, as you say. Just to say, we are currently consulting on the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme—so, to encourage everyone to respond to that. That's in order to support households to transition to both lower carbon heating, but also actually to assist with their domestic household bills as well. We obviously recognise the problem that you've just outlined so ably, and the difficulty the energy price increases have caused for households who are dependent on oil in particular. It is acknowledged in our cold weather resilience plan, which includes actions to better support households and work with oil suppliers to improve cold weather resilience for low-income households.
Just to emphasise, rural households are included within the scope of the assistance fund to support eligible off-grid homes with the cost of fuel and boiler repairs. It's often something that people don't realise—that they're eligible to apply for the discretionary assistance fund grant. We also are working closely with our single advice fund services, so that we are making sure that more vulnerable people get the advice and support they need to apply for the support that is available. And also then, on the longer term point, we're obviously rolling out the optimised retrofit programme, because we absolutely recognise that we've got some of the oldest housing stock in Europe, and that one-size-fits-all retrofit certainly does not work. And the whole purpose, as you've heard me saying before, of the optimised retrofit is to experiment with what will work, to bring those houses up to both the insulation and the domestic heating standards that we expect, to tackle both the climate emergency and the fuel poverty agenda that comes with living in a draughty and inefficient home.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. In June 2021, our Senedd Cymru, Welsh Parliament, declared a climate change and nature emergency. We voted in favour of introducing a legally binding requirement to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets. Five months later, however, in November, the best that you, Minister, and Plaid Cymru could do was simply just to reiterate what we've already agreed, and that is that targets do have a role to play in helping to protect and restore biodiversity. Now, Wales Environment Link sent you and the First Minister a letter last week stating that the scale and pace of action needed to address the nature crisis are simply not in place. Now, I and others agree with Wales Environment Link that Wales, as one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world, needs to lead the way on setting targets that will drive action and prevent another lost decade for nature. In addition to responding to Wales Environment Link, will you clarify to the Senedd today why you have not yet set nature recovery targets in law, and have you actually responded to WEL yet regarding their letter of concern?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. So, at the time we declared the nature emergency, I made it extremely plain that we were looking to see what the outcome of COP15 was before we set the fundamental statutory targets for nature recovery—so, actually, the halt of nature decline and then nature recovery, because we need to achieve both. We've also said we will of course sign up to the 30 per cent by 2030 targets, although we hope to improve those as a result of the outcome of the COP15 discussions. I've made that plain all the way through, so it's not as if we suddenly haven't done anything; we've always made it plain that that's what we were relying on to look at what the targets ought to be.
I recently met with Wales Environment Link; I meet with them very regularly indeed. We're absolutely on the same page as them. We need to set stretching targets that are achievable. We need to understand it's not just about the targets; it's about putting all the resources in place and the actions necessary to achieve those targets. So, it's not as if you just pluck a target out of mid air and go, 'There we are, then.' So, we've got quite a lot of work to do to make sure we can actually achieve the targets.
Just after February half term, I will be undertaking a deep dive into biodiversity, halting its decline and reversing, so that we have recovery, so that we can understand not only what the targets should be, but what the measures we need to put in place to do just that ought to be, and I will be doing that in conjunction with our statutory, our local authority and our non-governmental organisation partners across Wales. So, we are absolutely working towards that. We are, as I say, engaging in the COP15 process, and there certainly hasn't been any delay in the timetable that I set out when we declared the nature emergency.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Now, one area that would hugely benefit from more ambitious targets is your pledge to restore 800 to 900 hectares of peatlands per annum. Now, during the cross-party group for biodiversity, there was general consensus that we must adequately fund peatland restoration as part of the rural interventions that are actually laid out in your programme for government. Alarmingly, however, the representatives of the wildlife trusts in Wales have made it clear that if we remain on your present trajectory, it would take us over 100 years to restore all our peatland in Wales.So, at climate change committee last week, after I raised concerns that Natural Resources Wales could be spending less than 3 per cent of their flooding budget on natural solutions, NRW responded that they will submit a bid to the Welsh Government to expand this work. Minister, what commitment can you provide us today to fast-track any application for restorative peatland flood management works by NRW? And given the need to encourage and engage scientific citizens, can you also confirm what steps you will take to collaborate with the third sector to promote greater community involvement? Diolch.

Julie James AC: So, again, Janet, we're very keen indeed to work with a group of scientists to understand exactly what is meant by recovery and restoration. So, again, these aren't just about the targets; these are about the processes that we need to put in place in order to be able to do them. We're currently—as you know, because you were in the committee when I was giving evidence as well—undertaking a baseline review with NRW about its funding across the piece, making sure that it's streamlined and fit for purpose by doing end-to-end process reviews with them. I will certainly be working very hard with NRW to make sure that they have the right resources in the right place to do all of this work, and, of course, they will be integral to doing the biodiversity deep dive that I've just spoken about. And, as part of that, of course, we will be looking at recovery of a large number of different types of habitat across Wales, including peatlands.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. As peat is five times more effective at storing carbon than trees, there really is no excuse now for not increasing the scale and pace of investment to protect and restore our peatlands. We all agree on the need to protect the environment, but it does seem that you've failed, Minister, as yet, to deliver a green Brexit for Wales. The UK Environment Act 2021 and UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Continuity) (Scotland) Act 2021 do include environmental principles and governance arrangements intended to ensure compliance and accountability in England and Scotland. And, again, to quote the Wales Environment Link, Wales has achieved comparatively little. Last week, you informed me that the timing of any work on long-term environment governance structures will just have to wait until after complex discussions with your new coalition partners, Plaid Cymru. So, rather than let another political party in the Senedd delay a green Brexit in this nature crisis, Minister, will you confirm whether the timeline for preparatory works on environmental governance will be fast-tracked, and confirm what stakeholders you hope to be involved in its discussions and that will be undertaken with those bodies established in England and Scotland?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. Once again, you've conflated about five different things there, so I don't intend to proceed to unpick it. The green Brexit you talk about, of course, had we just stayed inside the European governance arrangements, we wouldn't have needed to do anything in addition, and one of the big issues for us will be maintaining parity with European laws going forward, and not having the current Conservative Government already headlong towards removing many of the protections that we have in a number of areas in England. So, I despair as to the idea that a green Brexit is what we're talking about. It's quite clear, from various of the laws already passed, that that's not what we're talking about. Here in Wales we've got interim arrangements in place for environmental protection. We will be, of course, legislating to put that on a statutory basis. I wish to do that at the same time as putting the targets for biodiversity halt and decline and recovery into place, and so we will be bringing those forward once we have those arrangements in place. In the meantime, we have functioning interim arrangements in place to do just that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the Crown Estate in Wales generated £8.7 million in revenue last year, and the valuation of the estate's Welsh marine portfolio has increased from £49.2 million to £549.1 million. These are resources that could enable Wales to develop our Welsh renewable energy industry and retain wealth to fund Welsh public services, instead of selling off precious assets to the highest foreign bidder. This month, Scotland auctioned 17 options of seabed, totalling 25 GW, through Crown Estate Scotland, and that led to an extra £700 million for Scotland's public finances, based on sustainable development. Wales can't do this, because the Crown Estate isn't devolved. So, you've said in the past, Minister, that you support its devolution, but there needs to be movement on this, or we risk hampering our attempts to develop the marine and offshore renewables industry, which, of course, is a key aspect of reaching the net-zero target. Could you set out what steps, please, you're taking to seek the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales, and also share your view about what process should be in place to ensure that, where there are areas where the Welsh Government and the Senedd agree they should be devolved, those are devolved, so that we keep in line with the democratic wishes of the people of Wales?

Julie James AC: Absolutely, Delyth. I completely agree that the Crown Estate should be devolved to Wales. It's completely outrageous that it's devolved to Scotland and not to us, and that, indeed, the returns from the Crown Estate go straight back to HM Treasury. They don't even go through the Barnett formula arrangement. So, I have absolutely written to say that we want the Crown Estate devolved, and we want them devolved on the same basis as they are devolved in Scotland. However, in the meantime, and in the absence of a Government at UK level who seems likely to do that in the foreseeable future, in the meantime, we have also sought to develop a very good relationship with the Crown Estate. So, both myself and Lee Waters have met with the Crown Estate to discuss the various potential in the Celtic sea and around the Welsh coast, where Crown Estate land is involved, and, also, actually, on land as well. So, the Crown Estate own some land in Wales too. We've also engaged with them to make sure that we have as much of a community ownership, community benefit, strand in the auctions that they are conducting, although the money goes, as you say, back to the Treasury. So far, we've had an engaged and reasonable reception from them, although that's no substitute, I absolutely agree, for having the thing devolved to us.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I look forward to seeing developments on this as that progresses.
I was going to raise a different issue with you this afternoon, but actually this lunchtime a number of Members attended the cross-party group on clean air and we heard a really powerful presentation from someone called Rosamund whose daughter, I believe living in London, died and it was found that air pollution had really contributed towards not just the fact that she died but also why she had asthma in the first place.
We know, gosh, so much more it seems with every year about the really damaging toll that air pollution has on even levels of dementia, but certainly on children's health, on respiratory health. Could you please give us any update that you can on what timetable you are following to be introducing a clean air Act for Wales?

Julie James AC: Llywydd, the Deputy Minister is the Minister responsible for clean air, so I wonder if he could be unmuted.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for putting your hand up there, Deputy Minister.

Oh, okay. Okay, fine.

Lee Waters AC: Yes, as you know, we've been waiting for the publication of the latest World Health Organization guidance on clean air in order to base our Senedd law on that standard, and that has only recently been published. We're now completing that, and there are several stages of consultation and design that it needs to go through to make sure that is robust. But the provision of the law is not the only thing that will drive progress on clean air, clearly, and we are committed to action this year, not just simply waiting for the law to be passed.
So, our active travel fund, for example, has clean air as a key component of its guidance. That's again one of the actions we have under the Wales transport strategy to achieve modal shift, so that's £75 million this year to encourage people to use walking and cycling for short journeys rather than cars. Similarly, our bus strategy, and we're hoping to publish a White Paper in the coming months, is also about achieving modal shift to have fewer polluting cars on the road. And also our electric car action plan is similarly about decarbonising the car fleet so that there are not tailpipe emissions, which again causes those dangerous toxins that are released and kill people.
So, we are committed to doing a series of actions this year and next year to tackle clean air, whilst in parallel working on as robust as possible clean air Act. Now, I've issued the invitation to the cross-party group, and I'll do it to Members again; we want to work cross-party on this. The challenge I've set the cross-party group is to identify the most robust set of measures that can command cross-party support that we can then bring to the Senedd.

I forgot my own rule there; I was expecting a third question. My apologies. Cwestiwn 3, Samuel Kurtz.

Woodland Creation Project

Samuel Kurtz MS: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the progress of the Welsh Government's woodland creation project? OQ57523

Lee Waters AC: Yes. The trees and timber deep-dive exercise identified the actions we will take to increase woodland creation, including a new funding scheme and changes to the way projects are verified. These are being implemented and overseen by a delivery panel, which I chair.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Weinidog. Ash dieback is a common fungal based disease that is sadly shared amongst much of Wales's ash tree population, the third most common tree in Wales. Within my own consistency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, we have seen first hand how damaging this disease can be. On the Stackpole Estate alone—which I had the pleasure of visiting on Monday to plant a tree as part of the National Trust blossom watch campaign—the trust will be felling over 900 ash trees this winter, at a cost of £30,000. Across Wales, 6,500 ash trees have been managed because of ash dieback since 2020, and a further 20,500 trees have been designated as requiring safety works. Therefore, what assurances can you as Deputy Minister give that our current tree planting strategy is exceeding the number of trees being culled due to this disease, and will the Welsh Government's woodland creation tree count figures accurately reflect the total number of trees in Wales, including those removed, not just the number of new trees planted? Diolch yn fawr.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Sam Kurtz is right that ash dieback is a serious threat to our tree population. Some 97 per cent of the ash population across the UK is estimated to be vulnerable to being infected by ash dieback. Just this week, the Wales strategic ash dieback group met with a range of stakeholders to provide feedback on draft guidance to support landowners in the management of their ash trees, and we'll be publishing that this spring. So, we know we also need to make sure that the trees we plant are resilient to future diseases. It is likely, as a result of climate change, that our trees will be facing a greater range of threats, and that's why it's also important that, when we do plant trees, we don't plant monocultures. So, the UK forestry standard, for example, that all tree planting that we fund has to be compliant with, requires at least five different varieties of tree to be planted to partly guard against this kind of threat.
As the Member knows, we do have ambitious targets for planting more trees, guided by the advice of the UK Climate Change Committee on the number of trees we need to tackle the climate emergency. And of course, they also tackle the nature emergency. So, the deep-dive exercise, which was designed to unblock barriers, identified that we need to plant more than 80 million trees within the next nine years. And we need to do a variety of trees, both trees for crops, so that we can create a Welsh timber industry, but also trees for biodiversity, and deciduous trees as well, but trees primarily on farmland. We work very closely with farmers, and they are taking the lead in this. If every farmer planted a hectare of their land with trees, then we'd be meeting our target. So, we don't want to see massive plantations as a rule, we want to see every farmer and every landowner, as well as communities, embrace tree planting as both a good for climate change but also a good for health and well-being in their communities.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Apologies for my technical problems. Minister, I hear reports that Natural Resources Wales are buying family farms in Wales in order to plant trees, with concerns that this land will be no longer food-producing land and that the value of the land increases. This is not only damaging to agriculture, but also means that less food will be produced here in Wales. Is this part of the Government's forestry plan, and do you believe that it's right that NRW should be buying land for these purposes, if that is the case? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think we all agree we need to plant more trees, therefore it follows that we need more land to plant those trees on. The UK Climate Change Committee estimates that we need around a 10 per cent shift in land use from food production to tree planting, both, as I say, as a crop for timber production, but also for carbon sequestration. And I also note that, as part of our partnership agreement with Plaid Cymru, we're looking to be more ambitious than the 2050 net-zero target and looking at what it would take to reach net zero by 2035, and I can hazard a guess that that work is going to show we need to be planting even more trees. So, I would hope that Mabon ap Gwynfor is supportive of our efforts to plant more trees, and there will be some change of land use to do that. But, as I said in the answer to Sam Kurtz, if this is done at scale by all landowners and farmers, there only needs to be a modest change of use on the land they currently farm. We are working closely with the Woodland Trust, who have an excellent initiative to encourage farmers to plant hedges and edges. Every farmer has an element of their farm that they would be happy to use for tree planting, and that's the conversation we want to have with each of them as part of the sustainable farming scheme, to identify that land and make it easier for them to plant that land. It's not helpful to continuously be questioning whether or not tree planting is something we need to do and constantly finding reasons for stymieing the progress. It has to be done sensitively, it has to be done with communities. I want it to be led by Welsh farmers, but it is going to involve a small degree of changing land use.

Trail Hunting

Vikki Howells AC: 4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the decision by Natural Resources Wales to ban trail hunting on land it manages? OQ57507

Julie James AC: Diolch, Vikki. The Natural Resources Wales decision to ban trail hunting in the Welsh Government woodland estate was taken following the outcome of a court case against a senior leader of the Masters of Foxhounds Association, and in response to it.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I'm following up on my question to the rural affairs Minister before Christmas, and specifically her reply that the Welsh Government would support the consideration of a permanent ban on trail hunting by those responsible for publicly owned land in Wales. We know that trail hunting is used as a smokescreen for the hunting of live animals. Following on from the examples of NRW and the National Trust banning trail hunting, will you look to bring in such a ban as a matter of urgency to ensure that our public land isn't used for this cruel, illegal and archaic practice?

Julie James AC: Yes, Vikki, I absolutely welcome the decision made by NRW. Of course, NRW makes the decision on behalf of the Welsh Government on its public land, so a very large amount of public land is now covered by the decision not to allow trail hunting on that land. We certainly will be working with other public landholders—local authorities, and so on, across Wales—when there is land that is used for trail hunting. We're of the opinion that a very large percentage of that land—because the National Trust has done something very similar—it's now not possible to conduct that practice on that land. But, I'm absolutely on board with what you're saying. We will be exploring what else we can do to protect any other lands that are currently in use, and we're also really interested to see how the Scottish Government address their commitment to banning trail hunting across all public land in Scotland in this parliamentary term as well, because we're very anxious to do that. So, I absolutely agree with the thrust of your question. I think we have largely accomplished that with the combination of the National Trust and NRW land, and I will certainly be working with other public landholding partners to see what can be done.

Joel James MS: The national survey for Wales has shown that almost 10 per cent of people in Wales participate in off-road cycling and mountain biking, and a considerable amount of Natural Resources Wales's land accommodates this activity. Whilst I agree that off-road biking is, on the whole, a good thing, providing an opportunity for eco tourism and helps with health and well-being, we must be aware that it also causes long-term damage to the land.
I have in mind Ty'n-y-coed forest in Creigiau in Cardiff West, which has been extensively damaged by mountain bike users who have, by the unauthorised creation of their trails, not only damaged the topography of the land, but caused permanent damage to trees, habitats and other vegetation. Residents have also expressed concern about the dangers these mountain bikers pose to other users of the forest, such as walkers using the trails and public rights of way, primarily due to the speeds that they travel. From my discussions with NRW, and if I remember rightly, mountain bikers are not allowed in this forest, but clearly NRW are unable to enforce this.
Properly built and maintained trails with a proactive management strategy in place have proven to be extremely sustainable, and best practices have been identified in the mitigation of wildlife and vegetation disturbance. With this in mind, and given the unprecedented need to protect our forests, can the Minister explain what steps NRW and the Welsh Government are taking to ensure proper trail design and management strategies are put into place for all users of forests in Wales? Thank you.

Whilst the question does refer to forests, this question is primarily around hunting on forestry land, but if the Minister is able to offer some response, that might be useful, but I'd understand if that isn't possible given the nature of the original question.

Julie James AC: So, I'm happy to respond just partly, Llywydd. Indeed, it's not quite on the point of the original question, but, Joel, I'm absolutely aware of the issues about off-road biking, particularly scramblers, and so on, as well as mountain biking. The short answer is that I think it's very important for us to set up special areas where people can indulge in the sport of jump biking, and so on. We actually have some world champions in Wales in my own constituency in that sport, but it's also very important to make sure that the trails in the forest are used for the purposes they're intended, for walking, where that's intended, for cycling, where that's intended, and so on, and not a mixed use in the way that you mention. We are working with NRW to understand what enforcement messages—'measures', sorry; I can't speak with my cold today—what enforcement measures might be possible, and also, actually, with the local police forces to ensure that bye-laws are in place and properly enforced, and so on. I'm more than happy to discuss the issue with you further, as it's a matter of some interest across Wales.

Question 5, Rhun ap Iorwerth, to be answered by the Deputy Minister.

Roads that Flood Regularly

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Wishing the Minister well as she recovers from her cold.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 5. What support does the Welsh Government provide to make roads that flood regularly more resilient? OQ57514

Lee Waters AC: I note that no good wishes were offered to me as I recover from my cold, but I'll put that to one side.
The Welsh Government have measures in place to manage trunk roads that are affected by weather events, including flooding. The local road network is, of course, the responsibility of local authorities who are provided with grant funding by the Welsh Government to maintain and ensure the resilience of their roads.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: My best wishes to the Deputy Minister depend on his answer to the next question, of course. When wind, rain, and high tides come together, the road to the east of Beaumaris near the Laird site floods. It's happening more and more often, and although there are no homes at risk directly from the flooding, thousands of homes in the areas of Llangoed and Penmon are isolated, care homes can't be reached, routes for emergency services are interfered with, and there is a real risk. I know there is no easy solution, but it has to be done, and I do know that officials from the council share my concerns, following the conversations I've had with councillors. Now, one problem that local authorities face is a lack of capacity in putting plans together, and I would welcome a commitment to assist local authorities to generate that capacity. But my main question is: crucially, can I ask for a long-term commitment to the resilient roads fund, in order to ensure that there is funding available for ensuing years, in order to find a solution to this specific problem and other problems such as A5 in Pentre Berw too—that is, where homes are not directly at risk, but where the risk to the resilience of transport and to community safety is very real indeed?

Lee Waters AC: Well, the Member is right. This is very real indeed, and we know it's going to get worse as climate change intensifies and making our roads resilient to the threats of storms and also the impact of extreme heat is one of the things we need to do as we adapt to climate change, which is part of our net-zero strategy. It's one of the reasons why we've set up the roads review, so we shift funding away from continuously building new roads to maintaining the roads that we have better, partly in order to deal with the growing threat of climate change. And it was with that in mind that we created the resilient roads fund and we are spending £18.5 million this year for local authorities to bid in to deal with schemes like the one that Rhun mentions. And, in the next financial year, authorities will be able to continue to apply for funding for schemes they've already begun. We do have difficult budget choices to make—there's no point pretending otherwise—and we're not able to do all that we want to do. We're hoping that the roads review panel's report will come out in the summer, and that will give us some advice on how we can make these choices in the years beyond next year.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'm sure the Deputy Minister will be aware of the issue of the B5605 in Wrexham, which was raised in First Minister's questions yesterday. However, the First Minister said he wasn't familiar with the issues there. It's also been raised in Prime Minister's questions this afternoon by my colleague Simon Baynes MP. And it's the closure of this road for more than a year now that has had a huge impact on local people, who now have to take longer journeys. This is a significant issue for them, adding 15 miles and up to 30 minutes to their journey, while of course also adding to their carbon footprint. I did write to the Minister on 23 November regarding the damage to the B5605 between Cefn Mawr and Newbridge, caused by storm Christoph. I wrote again last week, but I've yet to receive a response to any letter. The repair works to the road are expected to cost around £1 million, and 12 months after the storm, the only progress that appears to have been made is that Welsh Government approved money to carry out a preliminary assessment. So, Deputy Minister, do you think it's acceptable for this road to stay closed, and if you don't, what urgent action are you taking to ensure it reopens as soon as possible?

Lee Waters AC: Yes. I noticed it was raised both in First Minister's questions and in Prime Minister's questions by Simon Baynes—erroneously, because he's blaming the Welsh Government for something that is the responsibility of the local authority. I understand the temptation to play politics on this, but he ought to do his homework a little better before casting aspersions. We are in discussions with the local authority. We want to help them to solve this problem, but it's for them to put in the right application, to the right fund, in the right way. I think it's unfortunate that Sam Rowlands joins the bandwagon of placing blame at our door when it doesn't properly belong here. That said, we recognise the problem this is causing to the local community and we want to be part of finding a solution. The leadership for this belongs properly—as a former council leader, he will recognise—with the local government, and we hope to work along with them to try and find the solution as quickly as possible.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I also mentioned this earlier, I think, in the questions, as a supplementary to Gareth Davies's one. Our highway infrastructure, including the drainage system of ditches, culverts and gullies, was built many years ago and is struggling to cope with the volume of rain that often falls these days. Many properties sit level with roads and some older ones are below road level. A lot of water drains off land onto the highway, and once the highway gullies cannot take the volume, water then flows off the road into properties. I watched one day as rain fell so heavily, the gullies could not take any more and water started to flow down towards the sandbagged properties, but thankfully, as the volume of rainfall eased, the gullies started to take it and the ebb of water eased and receded. Due to climate change, there are more instances of this monsoon-like rainfall. So, what is being done to capture rainfall using natural solutions to help with the capacity of the drainage systems and mitigate the impact of heavy rainfall on roads that flood regularly? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: As I mentioned in the answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth, we recognise that climate change means that these events are going to occur more frequently and they do pose a problem to our critical infrastructure, and we are committed to doing what we can to address that.
The question the Member asks specifically about natural drainage solutions is a really important one, because I think we over-rely sometimes on engineering, when we want to try and use different approaches, because we can achieve results quicker and cheaper as well as enhancing biodiversity as we do so. She'll be aware that, since January 2019, all new significant developments, including roads, have had to implement some kind of sustainable drainage scheme to capture the rainfall and run-off from those projects. That is now something embedded in our approach to capital construction, and of course, we look for opportunities to mitigate where we can.

The Welsh 200 Nautical Mile Zone

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to conserve nature throughout the Welsh 200 nautical mile zone? OQ57494

Julie James AC: Diolch, Janet. I'm committed to a resilient marine environment covering the entire Welsh marine zone. Our programme for government commits us to a marine ecosystem recovery and enhancement programme. Supporting this aim is the designation process for predominantly offshore marine conservation zones and the management actions for our marine protected areas.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I have to say that I was disappointed during climate change committee last week when the Deputy Minister refuted the fact that, during his deep dive on nature conservation, he basically ignored the fact when I said that I was concerned about whether there'd been any engagement with any of the non-governmental organisations in terms of nature conservation. If you look at the actual deep dive report, there's no reference to any of them, so that's that something I would like you to take further.
But I've highlighted during climate change committee that there still exists a discrepancy between the section 158 definition and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, which of course provides responsibility for Natural Resources Wales to promote sustainable management of natural resources up to 12 nautical miles, and your Welsh Government's broader legal responsibility for nature conservation throughout the Welsh 200 nautical mile zone. In a recent written question reply, you kindly stated that the Welsh Government will look for an opportunity to amend the legislation in subsequent years, and in a letter to the First Minister, Wales Environment Link urged this administration to make the restoration of marine wildlife a higher priority, including protections for—I can never say it—cetaceans that recognise their ecosystem-regulating functions. Minister, can you clarify what engagement you have undertaken to secure a firm timeline to amend this discrepancy, so that this Siambr Cymru and Senedd Cymru may be in a better position to scrutinise and monitor the actions of NRW with regard to deep-water nature conservation? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. I am absolutely committed to amending the legislation. The legislation was of course passed before we had the 200 nautical mile zone, so we are absolutely committed to doing that, and I'm sure there will be a suitable opportunity to put it into a relevant Bill at some point in this Senedd term; we absolutely want to do that. In the meantime, we're behaving as if the environment Act says the 200 mile zone, because that's obviously what we'd like it to say, and we're making sure that we take that responsibility seriously.
In undertaking a deep dive on biodiversity, I already mentioned I will of course be including marine biodiversity in that; it's a very important part of our biodiversity, as indeed is the intertidal part of Wales. So, all of the massive biodiversity in the intertidal zone is incredibly important as well. So, just to assure you, we will be looking at marine biodiversity at the same time, and that will, of course, include cetacean protection programmes and others. There's a very large amount of work to do here to ensure good conservation status both inside the marine protected zones and in the marine conservation areas, and to make sure that we have the right network right around the shore. I do absolutely assure you that I take it very seriously indeed. We are very, very aware of both the importance for biodiversity and the climate of healthy oceans, but actually, also, of course, to our tourism industry, which relies very heavily on our beautiful countryside and our beautiful coastline and seas. So, I certainly do take that very seriously. We know that we have, from the recent 'State of Natural Resources Report', some real fundamental challenges for the marine environment, including the threat of climate change, so we will be including that in the programme as we bring it forward.

Active Travel in Caerphilly

Hefin David AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for active travel routes in Caerphilly? OQ57528

Lee Waters AC: We support active travel routes in Caerphilly by providing the council with a core allocation from our active travel fund each year, and by offering the opportunity to apply for additional funding through a range of grants. In this financial year, Caerphilly has been allocated over £1.4 million.

Hefin David AC: That funding is very welcome. I've seen throughout the constituency, and, indeed, the borough, the impact that that has made, most recently in Cwm Calon, where the cycle path has been opened for the first time and is very welcomed by residents. However, I'd like to focus on a specific part of the constituency. The Tynygraig footbridge over the Rhymney valley rail line in Llanbradach has been closed since April 2020 after the bridge was damaged and then was subsequently removed by Transport for Wales for safety reasons. Unfortunately, local elected members have made some mischievous comments suggesting that Transport for Wales have no intention of replacing that bridge. That's not true. I'd like to say I've had a meeting with Transport for Wales and they've made it absolutely clear their intention to replace the bridge—that that will happen. However, the timescale is fairly long. They were going to introduce a temporary bridge, but that would interfere with the work required to introduce a permanent bridge, they've subsequently discovered, which is disappointing. However, that bridge will be replaced. I would ask the Deputy Minister if he would commit to working with Transport for Wales officials to do everything he can to shorten the timescale that is currently in place to get that bridge permanently replaced. Any assistance the Welsh Government can offer Transport for Wales in these circumstances would be very welcome.

Lee Waters AC: I can confirm what the Member says: the bridge definitely will be replaced and we're hoping it'll be in place a year from now, between late March and April 2023. It has taken longer than expected. As Hefin David said, it was severely damaged by a lorry and then had to be torn down. The process that it's had to go through, with a design bespoke for this particular location, has been complex, and obviously we've had COVID hit us at the same time. I apologise to the residents for the delays that they've had to put up with, but there's every intention by Transport for Wales to replace this bridge.

And finally, question 8, Rhianon Passmore.

Railway Services in Islwyn

Rhianon Passmore AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on railway services in Islwyn? OQ57511

Lee Waters AC: We've provided a £70 million loan to Blaenau Gwent council to work with Network Rail to enable an hourly Newport to Ebbw Vale service from December 2023. Our longer term ambition is the provision of four services per hour on the line.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch. On 12 December last year, following the £1.2 million investment to upgrade the Ebbw Vale line, an hourly direct passenger service between Crosskeys and Newport recommenced after a gap of 60 years. Minister, I along with colleagues met with representatives of Network Rail and Transport for Wales recently to discuss the further expansion plans of the line northwards through Newbridge to Ebbw Vale. With the Department for Transport finally upgrading the relief lines between Newport and Cardiff, what further discussions will the Welsh Government have with our partner agencies on the further possibility of twice-hourly services on the line through Islwyn, both stopping at Newport and Cardiff?

Lee Waters AC: That's certainly our ambition too, but we are still awaiting a decision from the UK Government in respect of the funding submitted under the Restoring Your Railway scheme, which will allow us to progress our plans to take forward the reopening of the Abertillery spur. Rhianon Passmore will know that rail infrastructure is not devolved to Wales, but it was the Welsh Government that reopened the Ebbw Vale line in 2008, it was the Welsh Government that extended the line to Ebbw Vale Town in 2016, and it was the Welsh Government that made possible a brand new additional service on the line between Crosskeys and Newport in December. It is the Welsh Government that has committed £70 million of funding in a long-term loan to the extended service to Ebbw Vale Town in 2023, along with the introduction of brand new rolling stock on the line, which will help futureproof our longer term aspiration for four trains an hour on the line, which will benefit around 59,000 people living in communities alongside the Ebbw Vale branch line. So, I think we've more than done our fair share of making sure that this service in place. It is non-devolved and the UK Government needs to do its part.

I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the first question today is from Paul Davies.

Welsh-medium Education in Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of Welsh-medium education in Pembrokeshire? OQ57499

Jeremy Miles AC: Pembrokeshire, like all local authorities, has been busy preparing the new Welsh in education strategic plan, setting out how they propose to grow their Welsh-medium provision by 10 to 14 per cent over the next 10 years. I look forward to receiving their draft at the end of this month.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. As you know, yesterday, the Urdd celebrated its centenary, and as you also know, the organisation does incredible work in providing opportunities for children and young people to learn and to socialise through the medium of Welsh. I'm sure that you will join me in thanking the volunteers and staff over the years who have contributed so much for the children of Wales.
You will be aware that the demand for Welsh-medium education has increased substantially, so much so that local councillors in my area have noted that it is greater than the number of places available. There are children now who are being turned away, and as a result, parents are very concerned that there is a postcode lottery being created in Pembrokeshire. Given these circumstances, what support can the Welsh Government provide to tackle the substantial lack of Welsh-medium places in Pembrokeshire at the moment, and what discussions have been had with Pembrokeshire County Council in order to develop a long-term strategy for Welsh-medium education in the area?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for the opportunity to echo his congratulations to the Urdd for their incredible work over a century in providing youth services to our young people here in Wales. I'm sure I will share with him some happy memories of how important the Urdd was to me as a boy growing up. So, I'm happy to echo the Member's congratulations.
The local authority in Pembrokeshire shares our view as a Government that the issue of insufficient places available is an important issue, and they have been working on their strategic plan with that in mind. I also know that Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg have been working with many families in Pembrokeshire to support them in appeals on decisions in terms of access to specific schools. The range proposed by the council in its draft plan means that there will be an increase of up to 14 per cent, as I stated in my first answer. There are also plans in place by the authority to establish a new school and to look at the categorisation of schools and to change some categorisation to ensure that there is greater provision through the medium of Welsh, as well as the need to invest in the early years too. So, that element of ambition is there in the council's strategic plan in order to enhance provision.
The Member will also be aware that a capital programme was announced last year of some £30 million in order to provide investment in Welsh-medium education infrastructure here in Wales, and many of our local authorities have expressed an interest in that. The process is ongoing at the moment. We are looking at those proposals and comparing them with the level of ambition in the WESPs, and I will be able to say more about that in February.

Safety in and around School Premises

Darren Millar AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on safety in and around school premises? OQ57506

Jeremy Miles AC: All education settings in Wales have a legal duty to ensure that children have access to a safe learning environment. Safeguarding of learners is of paramount importance, and our statutory guidance, 'Keeping learners safe', sets out actions and expectations placed on schools to ensure the safety of children.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you very much for that response, Minister. It's precisely what I would have expected you to say. One thing I am concerned about is the focus that we seem to have in Wales on protecting younger children going in and out of the school premises in terms of safer routes to school and the active travel routes that are being developed. I've seen significant investment in those in recent years in my own constituency, and they've been very successful, including here in the town of Abergele. However, there's not been the same sort of focus on safety around secondary schools, and I wonder to what extent the Minister has considered trying to bring forward schemes that promote safety in terms of particularly younger pupils getting in and out of secondary schools. So, for example, if I can refer to the situation in Abergele, there have been some significant improvements and investments in active travel routes and safer community routes to get children to and from three schools that share the same site. But just across the road, there's a secondary school that has lots of traffic going in and out around school drop-off and pick-up times, and there's not been any attention paid to improving that situation. Can you tell us what work you might be able to do with Cabinet colleagues to look at bringing forward schemes that address these concerns? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Darren Millar makes a very important point about this, and it's a topic that I've discussed with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change in this context as well. It is absolutely essential that we make active travel to and from schools as convenient and as safe as possible for as many learners as possible, for reasons that I know he will share. The Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 obviously provides for the underpinning requirements in relation to this, and the design guidance sets out standards that routes are expected to meet. Of course, as part of that, the availability of safe drop-off and pick-up points, for example, as well as other arrangements, are integral to that. But I will discuss further with the Deputy Minister what more perhaps we could do in this area. I'm happy to update the Member in due course.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Minister, last week, my team arranged a very interesting meeting between the residents of Gwaelod-y-garth in north-west Cardiff and Rod King—I'm sure you're familiar with him—an expert on road safety and the founder of 20's Plenty for Us. Now, Mr King was full of praise for the road-safety policies of the Welsh Government, but one point he made was that drivers needed to be more aware of when they are driving into a community that they see an area as a community with people not just homes and buildings. Now, outside the school in Gwaelod-y-Garth, there is a 20 mph zone. Now, the major concern of residents of Gwaelod-y-Garth is that the rest of the village is not a 20 mph zone and that vehicles tend to speed up in those areas. So, what discussions are you having with your colleagues, and, perhaps, the Deputy Minister, who is still on our screens, and Cardiff Council, in order to ensure that a 20 mph zone is introduced for the whole of the village, so that children walking and cycling back and forth to school can do so safely? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Rhys ab Owen for that. I myself haven't had any discussions on the specific circumstances he described. As he said, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is listening to this discussion, and I can have further discussions with him on this. But this is exactly why the plans that the Welsh Government has to provide speed restrictions is so very important, so that we do safeguard as many of our communities as possible, where the schools are protected. But as he said, that needs to be done more broadly too.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson this week, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I'd like to start by welcoming the news that the Welsh Government is to fund new research into the resilience of NHS Wales's cognitive tests, particularly in terms of dementia care and the use of the Welsh language. Now, I'm sure that the Minister will be aware that first-language Welsh speakers with dementia often forget that they're able to communicate in English, whilst retaining their mother tongue. This allows for a clear line of communication to remain open whilst eliminating the risk of isolating individuals by not providing services in their language of choice.
Given this, I was disappointed to hear that the Welsh Government doesn't have any official data on the percentage of its social care workforce who are Welsh speakers. So, could I ask the Minister to work with the Deputy Minister for Social Services in order to carry out a Welsh language audit of the social care sector here in Wales, and note what plans the Government has to improve social care for first-language Welsh speakers?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for this important question. He may know that the Minister for health has already commissioned work in order to evaluate the policies that we have in terms of the Welsh language in education and social care. The point that he makes is important in terms of dementia and in broader contexts too. What's truly important is that we ensure that we're able to provide a Welsh language service for those when the language is most important to them. So, the challenges set by the Member are very worthy indeed, but there is work in train already by the health Minister to evaluate policies on the ground at the moment.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. In his annual report, the Welsh Language Commissioner has identified a great frustration with the increase in rules around Welsh language standards and the sluggish change in Welsh-medium education. Indeed, the Labour Member for Blaenau Gwent in the committee said:

Samuel Kurtz MS: 'One of the disappointments in the Welsh Government's language policies over the past few years is the deficiencies in terms of promoting the Welsh language.'

Samuel Kurtz MS: The Member went on to mention the Government's commitment to the Welsh language through 'Cymraeg 2050' by echoing the concerns of the former First Minister, Carwyn Jones. The comments made by Alun Davies are a cause for concern, particularly when linked to the commissioner's call for substantial intervention and a change of mindset in warning that the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy will not be delivered. If a Labour MS, a former First Minister and the Welsh Language Commissioner can see the problems with 'Cymraeg 2050', would you agree with them?

Jeremy Miles AC: No. The Member was in the committee to hear the discussion and he heard my response to the point that was raised—I'm sure of that.
This question in terms of promotion is an interesting one I think. I think it's—. The word 'promotion' can mean a number of different things. Language policy develops over time and we learn to do things differently and to work more effectively. What we have now is a range of policies in areas that we would have generally described as 'promotion' in the past.
So, one of the things we're doing is looking at the grants for promotion to see exactly what they do—they haven't been assessed since we took responsibility for that grant programme, so we're looking at all of those interventions to see whether they're working to their greatest capacity to ensure the prosperity of the Welsh language. And I would encourage Members to think of it as a further opportunity to scrutinise the work of Government, rather than me explaining in general terms the promotional work that we do. There are specific steps in train and you can look at them and assess them. And I think that is a more practical way of making progress in terms of the Welsh language more generally.
In terms of the comments of the commissioner, and anyone else who is encouraging the Government to do as much as we can in terms of Welsh-medium education provision, you will see no greater advocate for that than me. And I agree entirely that we need to do as much as we can as quickly as we can in terms of Welsh-medium education provision, and I want to ensure that there is equal access in all parts of Wales for anyone who wants Welsh-medium education. Fortunately, we already have a commitment to provide legislation in this area, so that, during this Senedd term, we can ensure that there is a stronger statutory basis for the provision of Welsh-medium education. But as you've already heard, the WESPs that the local authorities have been working on are expected to be ambitious. I've only seen them in draft form at the moment, and I do think they provide us with an opportunity to go further over the next decade.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Ahead of my final question, I'd just like to declare an interest as a member of Pembrokeshire County Council, and it's an issue that I've raised before within the Chamber. It's regarding Cosheston VC School in my own constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, which has faced ongoing difficulties relating to lack of space, which have worsened due to COVID-19. Following an issue I raised in this Chamber, Pembrokeshire County Council have provided additional portakabin toilets for the pupils, and a portakabin office for the headteacher. Discussions continue between the school and the council as to a more permanent improvement for the school, the teachers, and, most importantly, the pupils. However, the headteacher has expressed her frustration over the lack of clarity about what funding is available to either her school directly or to the local authority, to pay for the work that is desperately needed. Therefore, Minister, can you confirm whether your £100 million funding announcement from earlier this year will be open to schools like Cosheston VC School, who, due to COVID, require additional space, in either a new build or portakabin classrooms, and can you please confirm how schools can go about expressing their interest and applying for this funding? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly. I don't know the particular circumstances of Cosheston school, so I won't be able to comment particularly on that, although, if the Member writes to me, I will be able to respond specifically in relation to that. There are a number of ways in which schools can have access to capital funding to make adaptations—local authority budgets are one of them, but also the funding that, from time to time, the Welsh Government declares, including that which was most recently declared by me. So, if the Member cares to write to me about certain schools in particular, I'll be able to give him some specific advice.

Questions now from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, yesterday you made it clear that the intention is that examinations should proceed this year, and I was pleased to see you recognising the disquiet of learners and staff, and the problems that they've faced in our schools and colleges over the past two years. You encouraged all students in exam years to speak to their schools and colleges about what additional support and flexibility could be available this year. But this is still very ambiguous, and places the burden back on the learners to try and seek support, rather than that support being offered to them. Clearly, we don't know what will happen in terms of coronavirus, although the signs so far are encouraging. If there was further interference with education, including high absence levels in terms of staff and learners, what contingency plans are in place in case examinations cannot take place?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, in terms of the advice to students and pupils in my statement yesterday, a letter has been issued to headteachers yesterday, explaining, or reminding them, where all the resources available are, in order to support pupils in examination years. I was also just encouraging pupils to have those conversations too, but the support will be provided through the school. That's already known, and has been emphasised once again in a letter to headteachers. So, I hope that will be practically useful in our schools.
In terms of the broader plans for examinations, Qualifications Wales has already stated what the contingency plans are. They're available on their website. So, what I wanted to do yesterday was to ensure that people understood that the Government was continuing to say that we will have examinations this summer, unless, as you say, it is impossible in terms of logistics to stage those examinations, but I don't expect that to be the case.
I think it's important that we look at this summer's examinations in a particular context. They are being specifically tailored for the circumstances, taking into account the disruption that there has been. The grading will be different, to take that into account; the content of the examinations will be reduced, in order to take account of that disruption.
What's very important, I think, is that we commit to ensure that we support continuity for pupils at GCSE level; whatever their options are, we want to support them. There is a budget, which I announced before Christmas, encouraging schools and colleges to have individual conversations with pupils in those years, so that they know what the range of options are that are appropriate to their personal circumstances. And we also want to ensure that those studying A-level, for example, have the same opportunities as are available in any other part of the UK. That's a competitive scenario, if you like, if you look at university places—if that's their intended route. So, it's important that we ensure that they have a fair opportunity, and the changes to examinations in Wales have, I think, gone further than any other part of the UK because of the way we structure examinations in Wales. So, I very much hope that that will be of some comfort to students too.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. I would like to declare, before asking the next question, that I am a Rhondda Cynon Tafcouncillor.
I'd like to turn now to the issue of additional learning needs, and Welsh-medium provision particularly. I warmly welcome the £18 million in addition that you announced earlier this month for providing further support for children and young people with additional learning needs who have been affected by the pandemic, and to help educational settings as learners start to the move to the new additional learning needs system.
However, although funding is available, and local authorities do have to provide support in the language of choice in the Act, there is a severe shortage of qualified Welsh-medium teachers to meet the need. In the region I represent, for example, I was recently told that there isn't a single specialist additional learning needs class in Rhondda Cynon Taf through the medium of Welsh, while there are more than 40 in English. Even in the current consultation, there is only one secondary class that the council intends to establish for the whole county.
So, I would like to ask what the Welsh Government is doing on a practical level to ensure that the additional learning needs necessary through the medium of Welsh is guaranteed for those who require it, wherever they live in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member raises a very important point. As well as providing a legal basis for these reforms, we need to ensure that the resources are available on the ground in order to meet the demand and to prepare and provide the services required, and that that is an element that will require training for our teachers in providing those services.
We're in a process at the moment of enhancing the resources available to teachers for personal training, and also to meet the requirements of the legislation more broadly. There's been a great deal of work happening in terms of professional training in this area for teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh and provide broader services through the medium of Welsh. And I would want to ensure that those resources are all available, as they are in English, in Welsh too. But, certainly, this is an area that's very important to us, and I will ensure that we do everything we can to meet the need, not only in English but also in Welsh.

Question 3, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Free School Meals

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 3. Will the Government provide an update on plans to deliver free school meals to primary school pupils? OQ57510

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I issued a written statement on 17 December, outlining the activities and priorities associated with the roll-out of free schools meals to primary school pupils, reflecting the agreement reached with Plaid Cymru in the co-operation agreement. Our absolute focus now is on working with our partners to increase the capacity of schools to deliver this extended provision.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Weinidog. One of the main parts of the co-operation agreement was the free-school-meals policy, which will benefit so many families. I'm proud that Plaid Cymru has helped to bring this to fruition from September of this year. This policy has major and positive implications for local supply chains and combating child poverty. It will also entail a capital cost to ensure that all primary schools can accommodate the extra demand of preparing and serving additional school meals. Minister, are you able to confirm that the capital funds are in place to equip school canteens, and that everything is on track to facilitate this flagship policy of the co-operation agreement?

Jeremy Miles AC: We've already provided an initial package of funding, which isn't the larger package that he's describing, to local authorities, to begin the planning work for the roll-out of the new level of entitlement, which, as he obviously knows, is a very significant extension of the existing eligibility, and that will enable local authorities to work with us in the coming months.
Some of that work is around working with their own partners, the supply partners, and others that he's alluded to in his question, but also to audit the workforce, to audit the existing infrastructure, and what more then needs to be put in place in particular schools in order to deliver the extended provision, and, generally, to work out the practical implications related to changes in the free-school-meals eligibility. We would all like that to be in place at the very earliest moment, but there are, as his question implies, a set of practical things that need to happen in order for that to be rolled out smoothly. As he knows, some of that work will be done between now and September, enabling the first tranche to be rolled out then, and there'll be ongoing work obviously for schools to make sure that the capacity is there in the system to deliver the next tranche the following year, but that work is already under way. We'll be working with local authorities over the coming weeks to map out what that means on the ground in terms of extra capacity, extra arrangements in relation to workforce and infrastructure.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, I recently met with members of the Farmers Union of Wales at Monmouthshire livestock market. During the meeting, concerns were raised about the Welsh Government's plans to extend free school meals to all primary school pupils in view of the Deputy Minister for Climate Change's statement that we should eat less meat. The president of NFU Cymru, John Davies, said that the high sustainability values of Welsh red meat and dairy means that consumers can continue to enjoy these products knowing that they are not impacting the environment. So, can I ask, Minister, what discussions have you had with ministerial colleagues to ensure that school meals have high nutritional value, with the priority being given to locally sourced good-quality produce from Welsh farms? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, actually, many of our local authorities already have arrangements in place to procure local produce in the way that she underlines, and her question is so important for many of our food producers, and we want to build on these practices across Wales. So, where schools and local authorities are able to establish cost-effective procurement arrangements with local food producers, I would absolutely encourage them to do so. I think the benefits of doing so are obvious to us all, aren't they. We all will share that priority. I think instilling healthy eating habits and attitudes at a young age really will bring the biggest benefits. Food preferences formed when we're young actually cover the rest of our journey through life, and I think offering a healthy school meal to all primary-age children free of charge will remove the stigma, which is sometimes associated with receiving free school meals, and I think that, alongside the ability to deliver even more locally sourced food in our schools, is a fantastic opportunity.

Mike Hedges AC: I speak as someone who has long supported free school meals in state primary schools, not just to support local farmers, but, more importantly to me, to improve the health of children and improve educational attainment. Hungry children do not perform very well. But my question is: what is the estimated capital spend necessary to increase capacity of school kitchens and dining halls? And what is the estimated number of additional kitchen staff that will be needed? I know this won't all happen in one year, but, if you hope to do it over the next four years, how much are you talking about?

Jeremy Miles AC: That is the work that's currently under way with local authorities to map out the need both in relation to infrastructure and also in relation to workforce, and that will enable us then to crystallise those numbers. But that work is already under way, and we've provided a budget to our local authority partners to support them in working with us to do that.

Further Education

John Griffiths AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on financial support for further education? OQ57521

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly. The 2022-23 budget sees post-16 funding at its highest level for some time and represents the largest increase, actually, in recent years, and it recognises, effectively, the increased numbers staying in post-16 education, continued post-16 renew and reform funding, and ensures that learners are offered the best possible support following the impact of the pandemic.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, further education continues to provide top-quality education and training across Wales and, I think, provides good value for public funding. Together with Jayne Bryant, I recently met with Coleg Gwent to discuss their plans to relocate their Newport city campus to the city centre, where it would be alongside the University of South Wales campus, allowing for good co-operation and progression, and it would also place education and training in the very heart of the city centre, and, I think, make everyone aware of the possibilities and the opportunities available at what would be a state-of-the-art campus. So, it would be very good for local learners, very good for local employers. So, I just wonder, Minister, if you could continue to work closely with Coleg Gwent to bring this important project to fruition, given all the benefits that it would deliver.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank John Griffiths for that. Coleg Gwent is a very, very good example of what I was saying about how important further education is, and the contribution that colleges like Coleg Gwent make to our education landscape and to meeting our broader economic needs is absolutely indispensable. He was suggesting in his question that there'll be discussions with universities around collaboration, and he will know that the legislation that we're currently taking through the Senedd in relation to post-16 education generally is intended to remove some of the obstacles, if you like, to collaboration in all sorts of different ways, between HE and FE, between FE and other kinds of providers, so that we can encourage our institutions to collaborate as they choose with other organisations in the best interests of our learners.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, the number of FE teachers has fallen by over 2 per cent between 2020 and 2021. Minister, with the new moneys announced, which are welcomed, what strategy do you have in place to reverse this trend?

Jeremy Miles AC: We want to make sure that the workforce is able to meet the needs of our learners, as do all our colleges. The funding—[Inaudible.]—this year, as I say, has enabled us to restore, perhaps, some of the more challenging budgets that we've seen in the past. It reflects the increasing demand for further education, which we will all welcome, and of course enables provision to be made in relation to the workforce so that those demands are met. I'm very keen to make sure that we are able to meet the needs of our learners in the post-16 landscape in a variety of ways, and I hope that the budget settlement will support further education colleges in doing that.

Question 5, Janet Finch-Saunders.

I think we're struggling to hear you. Yes, carry on, now.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the pandemic on the attainment gap?

Jeremy Miles AC: The—. Forgive me.

I don't think that's the question that's tabled here.

Jeremy Miles AC: No.

Can you ask question 5, Janet Finch-Saunders?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Sorry, Minister. Sorry, Llywydd. I wasn't aware of that one.

All right, okay. It's on the agenda and tabled in your name.

Question 5 [OQ57493] not asked.

We'll move to question 6, Joel James. Right, I don't think I see Joel James here. So, Joel James's question can't be asked. Yes, I can see you now, Joel James. I don't know what happened there.

Joel James MS: I couldn't unmute myself, sorry, and then I realised my camera was off. Sorry.

Right, okay. Ask your question, Joel.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Llywydd.

Inclusivity

Joel James MS: 6. How will the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 improve inclusivity for all learners? OQ57519

Jeremy Miles AC: The Act ensures the four purposes of the new curriculum become the shared vision and aspiration for every child and young person. In fulfilling these purposes, we set high expectations for all, ensuring each learner gains a broad and balanced education regardless of any barriers to learning they face.

Joel James MS: Thank you. As you're aware, and as you have explained, the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 is the legislation that sets out the legal framework for the new curriculum, and on the surface it has very inclusive aims, stating for example in section 28 that:
'The adopted curriculum must be implemented in a way that—
'(a) enables each pupil to develop in the ways described in the four purposes,
'(b) secures teaching and learning that offers appropriate progression for each pupil,
'(c) is suitable for each pupil's age, ability and aptitude,
'(d) takes account of each pupil's additional learning needs (if any), and
'(e) secures broad and balanced teaching and learning for each pupil.'
In the first part of the Act, it refers to each learner and states that learner needs will be accounted for within the curriculum. However, the legislation then goes on to state that, for children with additional learning needs, these sections, 27 to 30, disapply in relation to them. As a result, the legislation that sets out to apply to all learners, and specifically mentions ALN, is then subsequently disapplied or modified for learners with ALN, with the potential to become exclusionary and betray a deficit value for these learners. With this in mind, can the Minister explain why those with additional learning needs have sections 27 to 30 outlining how the legislation applies to every other learner disapplied to them? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: He has the advantage of presumably having the legislation in front of him with specific sections. But the legislation, obviously, is designed very much to work hand in hand with the additional learning needs legislation, and so the two Acts come together to provide access to the curriculum, and I think the focus on the four purposes and progression that underpin the idea of the curriculum offers that additional flexibility to be able to meet the needs of all individual learners. We've worked with a wide range of partners from all sectors of education, obviously including a network of ALN experts, to develop a curriculum framework that we are confident is fully inclusive and allows all learners, including those with additional learning needs, to participate, to enjoy their learning and to progress towards the four purposes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Well, I haven't got the Act in front of me either, but I'm absolutely of the view that this is a great opportunity for all learners—the new curriculum as well as the additional learning needs Act. I just wanted to ask you what plans you have to co-locate all special schools on mainstream school sites in the future so that people with ALN, who come in all shapes and sizes, can benefit from the additional resources you get in mainstream schools, particularly in the secondary sector, and enable those who've got particular needs to have the full benefit of a rounded education in line with their capabilities and abilities.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for that very important supplementary. I think it is very important for us, whenever we can, to be able to co-locate and make sure that all learners have access to the widest range of experiences and resources and facilities. She will know that, through the school building programme, the college building programme, twenty-first century schools, which is now renamed sustainable communities for learning, opportunities do rise from time to time to be able to provide for, for example, specific additional learning needs facilities within the campus, alongside mainstream provision. So, there are opportunities that we are keen to take for the reasons that she outlines in her question.

The Welsh Language in Cardiff

Rhys ab Owen AS: 7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to make the Welsh language as accessible as possible in Cardiff? OQ57508

Jeremy Miles AC: The menter iaithand the Urdd are active within the capital, offering opportunities to use, celebrate and enjoy the Welsh language. I'm looking forward to see Tafwyl returning to the castle in June. This is all important to support the growth of Welsh-medium education and so that everyone can see Welsh as a living language.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much. As a son of the capital city, it's been wonderful to see the growth in the use of the Welsh language and to hear the Welsh language around me as I walk the streets of the capital. As you said, one of the highlights of the social calendar in Cardiff is the Tafwyl festival, and it was a great loss that it wasn't staged during the first year of the pandemic. It was wonderful to have it back last year, and I'm looking forward to its return this year too. It attracts thousands every year. I remember it when it was held in the car park of the Mochyn Du; it now meets in the castle and has become a major festival. But, with that success, with the 39,000 people who attend Tafwyl, there are additional costs attached to that, and we regularly hear in this Senedd about costs increasing in general. Menter Caerdydd believe that the cost of staging Tafwyl this year will be some 20 per cent higher than the figure for 2019. Menter Caerdydd has to secure that funding through bidding annually for various different grants, and that in itself creates uncertainty. The fact that access to Tafwyl is free of charge makes it so accessible, with many non-Welsh-speaking parents and residents and people from ethnic minority communities in Cardiff attending the festival. So, what plans does the Government have to ensure that Tafwyl continues to be accessible and continues to be appropriately funded? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I'd like to thank Rhys ab Owen for that specific pitch for further funding for Tafwyl. We provide over £200,000 per annum to menter iaith Caerdydd and menter Bro Morgannwg to enable them to provide a range of projects, activities and events in Cardiff for families, children, young people and the whole community, and that's to be celebrated. It's wonderful that they're doing that work and that we're seeing the positive impact of that in the language's development in the capital city. As I said, I look forward to seeing Tafwyl returning to the castle, not to the Mochyn Du car park, as he reminded us it started in. It's a very important contribution not only to the Welsh language in the capital city, but also more broadly than that.

Finally, question 8, Buffy Williams.

The Attainment Gap

Buffy Williams MS: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the pandemic on the attainment gap? OQ57489

Jeremy Miles AC: We plan to publish a strategy to tackle the impact of poverty on educational attainment in the coming months. The Curriculum for Wales is central to our aspirations for learners' attainment, which we know has been adversely affected by COVID. The renew and reform plan, at this stage, has been supported in this financial year by £232 million in response to the pandemic itself.

Buffy Williams MS: Minister, pupils in schools have not been impacted equally in this pandemic. The hundreds of millions of pounds you have allocated to make schools COVID-secure has made a real difference, but there are still specific groups of pupils who have been disadvantaged more than others. We've seen an unprecedented demand for child and adolescent mental health services and school-based services with year 11 and post-16 pupils. Pupils eligible for free school meals and pupils with additional learning needs have found the return to school more difficult than their peers. Pupils living in high levels of social deprivation have seen their learning disproportionately impacted, from a lack of IT equipment to higher levels of teacher and pupil absence. I understand that these are difficult problems to address. How will the Welsh Government ensure we don't continue to see the attainment gap widen as a result of the pandemic, and how will you work with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC to ensure pupils sitting exams this year are on a level playing field?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, just to echo the point that the Member is making, I share a very clear personal commitment to making sure we do everything that we can to close the attainment gap. We have made progress in the past, but, as she said in her question, the experience of COVID in our schools and colleges will have not been felt equally by all our learners, and so it's incumbent on all of us to do whatever we can to support learners who need the most support to close that gap. We've recognised for some time that that was likely to be the issue, was likely to be the outcome, and, indeed, evidence tells us now that that is very likely to be what's happened. The funding that we've made available has been weighted specifically towards schools, reflecting, in the context of this question, the number of pupils who are from disadvantaged backgrounds so that that funding is balanced in that way, to provide extra support.
She will know that the—. She mentioned the digital challenge in her question. She will know that we have provided quite a significant increase in the availability of not just computer equipment but also the connectivity that is essential to be able to deliver that. Again, families living in disadvantage have found that a struggle and so we've been very keen to make sure that the work we do reflects that. The Education Policy Institute, in comparing the work of the four Governments across the UK, not only has said that in Wales we've invested more in our pupils, but that we've done that in a way that is more progressive and reflects better the needs of pupils that are disadvantaged or vulnerable.
In relation to examinations and her question, I am working with Qualifications Wales. I have been working with them and the WJEC. My next meeting with them is next week, to discuss what further we can do to specifically support learners through the assessment process, and reflecting, as she says in her question, the fact that not everyone has had the same experience over the last two years. The grade boundaries will reflect the disruption that we've seen in our schools, but I want to make sure, in addition to that, that there's also, for example, a fair and accessible appeals process that goes with our examination results to make sure that those issues can be taken into account.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

There are no topical questions today.

4. 90-second Statements

Therefore the next item is the 90-second statements, and the first of those comes from Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Monday of this week was the International Day of Education, a day that celebrates the role of education in terms of promoting peace and development worldwide. The International Day of Education this year takes place once again during the COVID-19 pandemic and, as Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on post-16 education, I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate the sector in Wales for continuing to collaborate at an international level despite the challenges that the pandemic has posed. ColegauCymru CollegesWales, for example, is supporting further education colleges, such as Neath Port Talbot College in my region, to integrate international activities and partnerships into the daily lives of learners and staff, and the international learning exchange programme for Wales places a firm emphasis on the value of international exchange programmes in the further education sector as well as in higher education and on providing opportunities that broaden horizons and change lives here and worldwide.
As we emerge from the pandemic, we must ensure that people of all ages can improve their opportunities through upskilling or retraining and changing course. Our further education sector and community education are experts on this, and need to be fully supported to achieve these aims.
As well as COVID, too many nations are also facing war, famine and poverty—problems in which western nations, such as the UK, have often played a part. As we mark International Day of Education therefore, we should challenge ourselves and the leaders of the world's powers to ensure that the best possible environment for education—an environment that promotes peace and social justice—is nurtured and developed. Thank you.

Next today we have Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Yesterday, as noted by many of my fellow Members, the nation celebrated the Urdd's centenary. And we heard, through our Llywydd's excellent singing, that, as part of the celebrations, people of all ages were part of the Urdd's successful attempt to break two world records by singing 'Hei Mistar Urdd'.
For me, the challenge summed up perfectly the Urdd's great strength, namely the organisation's role in promoting the Welsh language as a living, fun language that belongs to everyone, something that is just as relevant and important today as it was when the organisation was established back in 1922 by Sir Ifan ab Owen Edwards.As he noted in an issue of Cymru'r Plant in 1922,
'Now in many villages, and almost every town in Wales, children play through the medium of English, they read English books, and they forget that they are Welsh.'
The organisation's aim, therefore, was to safeguard the Welsh language in a world where English was increasingly dominating the lives of children in Wales. Over the decades that followed, the organisation went from strength to strength, leading to the establishment of the Urdd Eisteddfod, the residential centres in Llangrannog, Glan Llyn and now Cardiff, as well as a whole host of activities such as sports clubs, volunteering opportunities and humanitarian work. More recently, the Urdd played a prominent role in supporting refugees from Afghanistan, as well as ensuring access to the Urdd for all by offering membership for £1 to young people in receipt of free school meals.
As the organisation evolves, millions of children and young people in Wales have benefited from its work. And because of this evolution, the organisation is as important and relevant today as it was in 1922. We wish the Urdd every success for the next 100 years.

And on the same theme, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you. As we celebrate 100 years of the Urdd, I want to read a short extract from Urdd Gobaith Cymru Treuddyn, celebrating 100 years. Just over 100 years ago, Ifan ab Owen Edwards, from near Bala, wrote passionately about the plight of the Welsh language and culture. He was concerned that many children were reading and playing in English. They were forgetting they were Welsh, and so he proposed the establishment of new organisation for young people aimed at keeping the language alive and making young people aware of their responsibilities to it. Ifan invited readers of Cymru'r Plant, a monthly magazine he produced for children, to join his new movement, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, and the response exceeded expectations. By the end of 1922, the names of 720 new members had appeared in the magazine, with hundreds more waiting to join.
It was a girl who became the first general—remember, this reflected the style of the times, just after the first world war. She was Marian Williams, and did not, as one would expect, come from the heart of Welsh Wales, but from a farm, Fferm y Llan, in Treuddyn, Flintshire. Marian made history by organising her enlisted members into a group that met regularly once a week, and so, without any pressure, or even any suggestion from the founder, the first Urdd branch, or adran, came into being.
Sixteen-year-old Marian was a talented musician and writer who loved to write dramas for children. She was passionate about the movement and cycled round many houses recruiting members. She kept them busy practising songs, dances and recitations. She also wrote plays for them to perform. Thank you.

Well done, Marian, and all Urdd members throughout the years.

5. Motion under Standing Order 10.5 to appoint the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales

The next item, therefore, is the motion under Standing Order 10.5 to appoint the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to move the motion—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Motion NDM7893 Peredur Owen Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Expresses its gratitude for the contribution of Nick Bennett during his term of office as Public Services Ombudsman for Wales.
2. In accordance with Standing Order 10.5, and acting under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Act 2019, nominates Michelle Morris for appointment by Her Majesty as Public Services Ombudsman for Wales for a term of seven years to commence on 1 April 2022.

Motion moved.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. As Members will be aware, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales is a Crown appointment made on the nomination of the Senedd under Schedule 1 to the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Act 2019. The Finance Committee, as the committee with delegated responsibility for overseeing arrangements relating to the ombudsman, has been fully involved throughout the process of recruiting a new ombudsman, full details of which are outlined in the committee’s report.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'm glad to say that the recruitment process attracted many excellent candidates and it gives me great pleasure to move this motion today, on behalf of the Finance Committee, to nominate the preferred candidate, Michelle Morris, to Her Majesty for appointment as the next Public Services Ombudsman for Wales.
I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the current ombudsman, Nick Bennett. Nick was due to complete his term of office on 31 July 2021, but was appointed to continue in the role in an acting capacity for a further eight months until 31 January this year. I'd like to thank Nick for his valuable contribution during his time as ombudsman, and for continuing in the role in an acting capacity, in particular, for his work in pursuing the development of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Act 2019, which provides the ombudsman with own-initiative powers to investigate complaints and for setting up model complaints. This will undoubtedly provide a lasting legacy.
It is also worth noting that this will be the first ombudsman appointment made since the 2019 Act came into force. I would like to thank our predecessor Finance Committee in the fifth Senedd, which includes Members of the current Senedd, for bringing it forward and ensuring its successful passage. It is an example of the Senedd leading the way in taking a distinct 'made in Wales' approach to improving services and something, as a committee and a legislature, we should be rightly proud of.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: As outlined in the committee’s report, it is vital that the committee’s selection process meets the expectations of the people of Wales in terms of robustness and transparency. It's also vital that the process is conducted in a way that removes it from any suggestion of political interference. As such, we ensured that two party groups were represented on the appointment panel. I was joined by my fellow Finance Committee member and member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, Rhianon Passmore. We were also joined by the Chief Executive and Clerk to the Senedd, Manon Antoniazzi, and Peter Tyndall, the Ombudsman, Information Commissioner and Commissioner for Environmental Information of Ireland.
Following the interviews and the selection of Michelle Morris as the preferred candidate, Michelle attended a public pre-nomination hearing of the cross-party Finance Committee on 16 December 2021.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The committee firmly believes that a pre-nomination hearing ensures open and transparent scrutiny of the candidate identified as the most suitable from the recruitment process. It also provides the committee, and ultimately the Senedd, with additional confidence that the preferred candidate is suitable for nomination to Her Majesty for appointment.
During the pre-nomination hearing, members of the committee were keen to question the preferred candidate on her previous experience and aspirations for driving forward the ombudsman’s work in Wales. The committee concluded unanimously that Michelle is the preferred candidate for this post.
I therefore ask the Senedd to agree the motion to nominate Michelle Morris to Her Majesty for appointment as the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Chair of the Finance Committee for moving the motion. Nobody has declared an interest in contributing to this debate. I take it, therefore, that the Chair does not wish to respond with any closing remarks. So, I will ask the question whether the motion should be agreed. Does any Member object? I don't see any objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. May I wish every success to the new ombudsman in her work as the motion goes forward?

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Public transport in rural areas

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the names of Alun Davies, Hefin David, Jack Sargeant, Rhys ab Owen and supported by Carolyn Thomas.

The next item, therefore, is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on public transport in rural areas, and I call on James Evans to move the motion. James Evans.

Motion NDM7880 James Evans, Jack Sargeant, Samuel Kurtz, Natasha Asghar, Rhys ab Owen, Carolyn Thomas, Mabon ap Gwynfor
Supported by Paul Davies, Peter Fox
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that 101 million bus journeys were undertaken in Wales in 2018-19, compared to 129 million in 2004-05.
2. Further notes that 23 per cent of people in Wales do not have access to a car or van.
3. Recognises that public transport is essential in rural Wales to prevent isolation and loneliness.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) provide sustainable long-term funding for local authorities to enhance rural bus services;
b) ensure rural councils receive a fair share of future investment for public transport and active travel schemes;
c) guarantee the National Bus Strategy for Wales considers the unique challenges of public transport in rural Wales.
d) prioritise investing in zero-emissions public transport vehicles in rural areas.

Motion moved.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to move the motion in the names of my co-submitters and myself.
This debate is an issue that all MSs know all too well about. We are contacted by residents in our constituencies all the time who are having issues with accessing local transport and ask us what we can do to improve the services. I was overwhelmed to get wide-ranging, cross-party support for this motion, as I think it shows the maturity of this Parliament that we can all work together for the common good of the people of Wales. I was disappointed to see an amendment to this motion, and I'll touch on that later on. I hope today that we can share some ideas together to move forward to improve lives and improve public transport in Wales.
Living in rural Wales, as I and many others do, really is a blessing. It's a place untouched by much of modern society, and it is a landscape that people from all over the world come to admire. From the beautiful Brecon Beacons and Elan valley in my constituency to the coast of Pembrokeshire, up to the mountains of Snowdonia and along the shores of the picturesque north Wales coast, our nation is overwhelmingly rural, and politicians of all colours must remember that those living rurally have vastly different needs from those who dwell in more urbanised areas.
The National Federation of Women's Institutes has a campaign called 'Get on Board' to raise awareness of the importance of local bus services. They commissioned a report to explore the impacts of the significant reductions in local bus services that we have seen in recent years. Findings show that around one in five of their survey respondents living in rural areas have access to a frequent, reliable bus service; 25 per cent of respondents said that cuts to bus services have made them feel more isolated; and 19 per cent said their mental health had been negatively affected. Cuts to rural bus services have also meant a decrease in being able to connect to other modes of public transport and, as a result, 72 per cent said that their dependency on using a car and a reliance on family and friends has increased, and this has been at a cost to our fragile climate.
In 2004-05, 129 million bus journeys were undertaken in Wales, compared with only 101 million in 2018-19. This shows a significant drop in the people using public transport. This could be for a number of reasons: a reduction in the quality of the service, more access to cars and private transport, and sometimes a reluctance to wait for public transport. It could be for a number of reasons. But people who rely on public services as their sole mode of transport deserve a strong, well-funded, regular service. Approximately 80 per cent of bus users do not have access to a car, and 23 per cent of those people in Wales do not have access to a car or van. So, reliable public transport is vital.
Communities like Trecastle in the west of my constituency have seen their bus service reduce to a taxi service pre COVID and now no service at all, and that's on a Welsh Government trunk road. I met with Women's Institute members in Whitton, who saw their bus service cease in 2015, following the closure of a local school. They all now find themselves stranded in rural isolation, reliant on friends and neighbours for lifts to the nearest town for shopping and the usual things from the shops.
The data is clear: we all know that socialising and having access to meet with people keeps our mental health strong and prevents isolation and loneliness. The people in those communities deserve to have a guaranteed service that is sustainable for the long term, and funding for local authorities should be a top priority for Welsh Government in public transport. I know this area well as I was previously a cabinet member in the most rural council in Wales. And, if funding could be guaranteed in the long term, it would give the council and the people accessing those services a real sense of security and help them plan for the long term, and help us on the route to net zero.
We're also seeing the modernisation of public transport across the United Kingdom. Zero-emission vehicles are being rolled out across various areas of public sector transport. This move is vital to ensuring Wales plays its part in tackling climate change, and ensuring Wales continues to have clean air for our citizens across the nation.
I noted that my colleague Alun Davies and others have tabled an amendment to this motion, and I do think it's a shame, as it's making this motion overly political when there is no need for it to be so. They're blaming Margaret Thatcher and the Conservative Government for the deregulation of bus services way back in 1986, which was almost 40 years ago. If deregulation was so awful, why did the Labour Governments under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown not reverse these decisions between 1997 and 2009? And I hope that the people who have put the amendment forward can answer that when they make their contributions.
To conclude, I look forward to hearing the debate from across the Chamber today. This is a very important topic that needs to come above party politics, because it's vital we improve public transport for all of the people right across Wales. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Alun Davies to move amendment 1, tabled in his name and those of Hefin David, Jack Sargeant and Rhys ab Owen. AlunDavies.

Amendment 1—Alun Davies, Hefin David, Jack Sargeant, Rhys ab Owen
Supported by Carolyn Thomas
Add as new point at end of motion:
Recognises the damage done by the privatisation of bus services in the 1980s and calls upon the Welsh Government to bring forward legislation to re-regulate bus services as a matter of urgency in this Senedd.

Amendment 1 moved.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to the Member for Brecon and Radnor for putting forward the debate this afternoon, although I have to say to him that there are two areas that I take issue with in his introduction. The motion itself is one where I think most of us, and many of us, will agree, but there's no point—and as a Conservative, of course, you will agree with me—in pouring money into a public service that isn't working. We need reform, as well as more money. At the moment, there are many hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money supporting bus services across the whole of Wales, and the one thing we all agree on is that that money, if we doubled it, still wouldn't be sufficient and wouldn't be working.
When I represented Mid and West Wales, one of the things I found was that people, wherever they lived in that region, wanted the same things, not different things. Somebody in rural Wales doesn't want a different public service environment to somebody who lives in the centre of Cardiff. What happens all too often is that they don't get the right services. People, what we found time and time again—. A fantastic introduction to this place when I was first elected was an inquiry we did on deprivation in rural Wales, and what we found, exactly as the Member has said for B and R, was that there were issues with public transport that meant that they weren't able to access public services in all sorts of different ways, but people wanted those same services, the services that I speak to people about today in Blaenau Gwent. And to try to create conflict between people in different parts of the country I don't think is the right way to deal with these things. What we need to do is agree the services that people want to see delivered, whether they live in the smallest village in Powys or in the centre of our capital city. We have to deliver those services, and it's how you deliver those services that is actually the crucial point at question here, not the services themselves.
And what Thatcher did in 1986 was to break the link between what the Member himself has described as vital public services and the people who use those services, because what happened with privatisation—. It didn't happen in London, of course, and that's the really key issue: if this was such an important policy and such a breakthrough in public policy, then surely London would have experienced the same as elsewhere, but they didn't do it in London because they knew that it wouldn't work, and it hasn't worked since then. We've seen the disruption and the decline in services as a consequence of that.
So, what we need to do is to fund local authorities properly, and I think this is one area of policy where the corporate joint committees could work very well, actually, with local authorities working together to deliver services across a wider region. I think that could certainly be the case in the part of Wales I represent now in Gwent. But also, I think we need to look at the structure of the industry, because we are putting hundreds of millions of pounds into an industry that isn't working. It is not sensible to continue to fund an industry that isn't working, in a way, and to fund services without reform. And, for me, the re-regulation of buses is absolutely key. The Minister in this area has made commitments time and time again to not only more comprehensive public service offerings, but also multimodal public services. The only way you can achieve that is through public control and public regulation of those services.
So, we need to be able to do that. We need the tools, and I hope that the Welsh Government, in replying to this debate, will say that they are working with local government and with bus operators to ensure that we do have the tools available to us to ensure that the villages represented by the Member in B and R and the towns represented by me have the services that they require, at the times that they need those services, but also it's the quality of the services that are on offer. We all know that, quite often—. And I've seen down in Cardiff recently that there is a whole fleet of new electric buses there. It's fantastic. It's fantastic for the people of Cardiff. I want to see that in Blaenau Gwent, and why can't I see that in Blaenau Gwent? And why shouldn't you have that in Ceredigion or Brecon and Radnor or Conwy? Why shouldn't you have access to the same quality of service in all parts of Wales as you have in the centre of Cardiff? That is surely the ambition Government must have.
And what we should be doing, on this Wednesday afternoon, in bringing forward these debates and scrutinising the Government, is to say: what policy tools are you going to employ in order to achieve that? And there isn't a policy tool available to Government, with the exception of re-regulation, with the exception of public control, that is going to deliver the public services, in particular in rural Wales, that the Member says that he wants to achieve.
So, I will close, Deputy Presiding Officer, but one thing about good, high-quality public services that we all know is that they don't make money for people who don't use them. That means that we need public control of public services to ensure that the quality is available to people and, then, to co-ordinate those public services to deliver the services in all parts of Wales that the Member has described. And I hope that before this Senedd goes into the next election that we will have a bus Act on the statute book that will re-regulate the services and provide the foundation for the sort of high-quality public transport service that we can all be proud of. Thank you.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank my colleague James Evans for initiating this debate. It's a fact that 85 per cent of land in Wales is used for agriculture, forestry or as common land, and this is the same figure as England. However, whereas 18 per cent of the population in England lives in rural areas, the figure for Wales is 35 per cent. We know that practical and affordable public transport is difficult to provide in rural areas, but in my view I just cannot understand why this is the case in 2022. I spent over 10 years in London, where a bus comes between every five to 10 minutes, and whilst I appreciate in Wales we don't have the same number of residents as in London, I still can't get my head around that in some parts of Wales, particularly rural areas, it's only one bus per hour and in some cases much longer than that. There is no doubt that people living here in Wales are very much car dependent—

Natasha, will you take an intervention?

Natasha Asghar AS: At the end, please, Deputy Presiding Officer, if that's okay. There is no doubt that people living here in Wales are very car dependent, as bus services are inadequate, infrequent or non-existent. It is a fact that a lack of a decent transport service undermines the economies of rural areas, which therefore makes it more difficult for people to access jobs and services. It also has environmental consequences, with the high level of car use compared to urban areas causing greater carbon emissions per head. From what I have seen first-hand to what I am hearing from constituents all across south-east Wales, and from the letters I am receiving from other parts of Wales, there has been a spiral of decline in bus services across Wales. The number of local bus journeys has fallen from 100 million a year in 2016-17 to 89 million in 2019-20. Rural bus services have particularly suffered as they carry fewer people per mile operated and are less secure economically. As a result, they are more at risk, whether they are operated commercially or are supported.
Before the pandemic, the Welsh Government's direct support for the bus network was largely focused on the bus services support grant. In 2014, they replaced a bus service operators grant with a bus services support grant, with funding set at £25 million. This fixed pot of £25 million has not changed since then. Why? It's evident that the funding per passenger for bus services in Wales in inadequate, and compares poorly with that provided for rail passengers.
With the decline of rural bus services, community transport schemes have tried to fill the gap. Community transport schemes are significant providers of transport in rural areas, and, there's no denying it, their detailed knowledge of their local market and enthusiasm to service their local communities is invaluable. However, community transport is not able to be self-sustaining in rural areas and requires support. Many operators are small and the sector has little capacity to meet increased demand without investment. Whereas community transport providers often meet specific needs to serve particular groups, they cannot provide a comprehensive rural public transport system.
Wales needs a strategy for rural public transport. Rural areas tend to have older populations and there will be other vulnerable people that have limited or no access to private transport. They cannot be abandoned and left to their own devices. The impact of social isolation on people's health and well-being, as we have seen during the pandemic, is considerable. The rural public transport strategy would start from the basis that all rural areas should have a public transport service that provides access to employment, education, health services, shopping and recreation. Based on this principle, there is an opportunity to rethink the provision of rural bus services, to recognise their importance, and provide all rural dwellers with the opportunity to access services.
The Welsh Government must recognise the importance of rural bus services, and provide the framework and funding necessary for their support. It's been over seven months since the Deputy Minister's road freeze, and we cannot just sit and wait for something to happen. Something needs to happen now to address the public needs, whether that be more co-operation with the London Government, or whether that needs to be something created by the Welsh Government itself. We need a consistent and long-term approach, taking into account the current and future needs, which doesn't just cater for a declining market, but allows public transport to grow and to thrive. Thank you so much. I'll take any questions or interventions now.

No, I think interventions are no longer asked for by—. The Member has finished her contribution now; you don't ask for interventions at the end of contributions.

Ken Skates AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, it's absolutely essential that the system is reformed as soon as it possibly can be. I think passengers the length and breadth of Wales have waited far too long for reforms to a broken system to take place, and it is unfortunate that we were unable to pursue those reforms in the previous Senedd term. I very much welcome the motion as amended, if it will be amended by colleagues. I think it's absolutely right and proper that we take this opportunity to debate such an important subject, which is regularly raised by all of our constituents. The ability to be able to get from A to B, whether it's from home to work, whether it's from home to an essential service such as a hospital or a GP surgery, is absolutely vital in maintaining a decent quality of life for people. Many people cannot afford a private vehicle, and an increasing number of people are choosing not to use a private vehicle, for the good of the natural environment. I very much welcome today's debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I look forward to hearing more contributions from colleagues across the Chamber.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to James Evans for putting forward this debate. I'm pleased to see this discussion about public transport continuing, after my debate last week. It's a vitally important issue, for a number of reasons, and it's important to those communities that I represent here in the Senedd. I'd also like to thank the Deputy Minister for his response to my debate last week, and for confirming that the Welsh Government is considering the motion put forward by the Liberal Democrats to introduce free public transport for every young person under the age of 25.

Jane Dodds AS: I agree with James that public transport continues to come under pressure. Unless there is properly funded and co-ordinated investment in public transport, communities, particularly rural communities, will be left behind. Since 2009, around a third of subsidised services in Wales have been lost, and we've seen a 22 per cent decline in the number of journeys by bus between 2008 and 2019. Future public transport policy and strategy must get to grips with sustainable funding, cost and accessibility, and financial support for decarbonisation and modal shift.
However, it will only be successful if solutions are designed on a place-by-place and community-by-community basis, and if they look at individual solutions that contribute to an effective public transport network across the whole of Wales. We do need solutions that are developed within rural communities and with rural communities, so that they work for those communities. That may include on-demand bus bookings, the use of small buses to navigate communities, more frequent and good-quality train services. There are plenty of tried-and-tested ideas out there that could help transform rural public transport—those such as the Ring a Link service in rural Ireland, the mobility agency in Italy, and the Bürgerbus in Germany; I'm not sure I've said that properly, and it's not what you think it is.
In order to change the trends we're seeing, local authorities and local travel planning must have the teeth and resources to make public transport reliable and accessible to everyone.As I've said, I've called for free public transport for under-25s, to make sure it is affordable for young people and to encourage further take-up of public transport, and hopefully, set some habits for the long term. I welcome the specific mention that James made of loneliness that is included in the motion. Poor public transport leaves those without a car at a distance from doctors or hospital appointments, work and training, or socialising with friends and family. It has left many, many people of all ages isolated, and particularly for older people, has chipped away at their independence and confidence.
The Campaign for Better Transport shared their reflections with me of a community transport driver who recalled examples of individuals, mostly older people, who hadn't left their homes for weeks or months on end due to a combination of poor weather and poor public transport. Representing the huge rural area of mid and west Wales, as I do now, I also hear similar sad stories, such as those echoed by James Evans. This is a desperate situation for people to be left in and shows how urgent an issue this is. I worry that public transport, and particularly bus policy, isn't being treated with the urgency it needs, and so I hope to see new policy and approaches come forward quickly so that, across all Members of this Senedd, we can work better to support a more effective public transport system. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank colleagues from across the Chamber, and in particular James Evans for bringing forward this important and timely debate? As other Members have said, public transport is essential to prevent isolation and loneliness, as well as ensuring people are able to access the services that they need, especially health services at this time. Encouraging people to use public transport more often is also an important step we must take to tackle the climate change issue.
Yet, in rural constituencies like Monmouth, too often people still struggle to have access to an adequate public transport system that meets their needs. The latter is a particularly important point. It's not just that there needs to be buses for people to use, but they need to be available at the right times and to stop at the locations that people need to go to. For example, Deputy Llywydd, I recently was contacted by a constituent who relied upon a particular bus service to get to hospital appointments at the Grange hospital. This service has been reduced significantly, and does not go directly to the Grange hospital now, meaning people have to catch a connecting service. This example demonstrates how a lack of joined-up approach to rural bus services affects people's lives dramatically.
I know there are important issues that impact on services, which other Members have referred to today, such as funding, and I'm pleased that Monmouthshire council has committed to protecting bus routes as much as possible in its 2022-23 budget consultation, despite the continued financial pressures it's facing due to the pandemic. However, there are wider structural and practical issues that need to be looked at closely to ensure that people get the services that they expect.
As I've said previously, I welcome many of the commitments around rural transport services outlined in the Welsh Government's 'Llwybr Newydd' strategy. It would be useful if the Deputy Minister could outline more about how he envisages the new regional transport plans helping to reduce transport inequalities in rural areas. I do also think that it would be useful to have a specific rural transport strategy to support the rural pathway that forms part of 'Llwybr Newydd'. Furthermore, I think constituents in my constituency are still wondering exactly how they will benefit from the south Wales metro scheme and when they will see improvements in bus services that have been outlined in plans for the metro.
To finish, Deputy Llywydd, I welcome the opportunity to have spoken in today's debate, and I hope all Members will support this motion. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas AS: As a Flintshire county councillor representing a rural ward, I know all too well just how important public transport is for communities like mine. Rural bus routes are rarely money makers, but they are a lifeline for many. Whilst highly populated areas tend to have better bus services because that is where they are most lucrative, it is rural communities that do not have access to amenities locally and need the transport.
Over recent years,we have seen bus companies across the UK collapse or cut routes that they deem no longer commercially viable. One bus operator in Flintshire made 14 changes to their services in one year, so many that the council struggled to keep bus timetables updated, and residents lost confidence with the service, which is why they need to be more regulated. Another pulled out of a core network route, and demanded a subsidy 10 times what had been paid previously. It ended up being unaffordable and terminated. Being a core route, it impacted greatly on many residents. It was difficult for us to understand why it was not commercially viable, as it was busy, and the fact that no other operator put in a bid for services highlighted that there is a lack of operators to create a market. This would be a good opportunity for local authorities to be able to step in with their own service.
Residents have been rightly upset, angry and frustrated when services were cut. They sent in petitions to the council, demanded we attend community meetings, which were very traumatic, but with limited funds and powers we were limited in where we could help. In one instance, we put together a new timetable around the hours best suited to residents to ensure a full bus, but no operator bid for the service. With no buses available, we hired a taxi minibus and a taxi to ensure the residents would not be isolated. Although welcome, it caused issues for a disabled resident, who needed step-on, step-off access, and sometimes there were not enough seats for everyone. We soon discovered minibuses were an issue. Level access transport is so important for people with prams, walking aids, bikes, shopping trolleys, even just worn-out knees and hips. Eventually, an operator stepped in to run a council procured bus, thanks to a Welsh Government grant, which was most welcome.
At the consultation events we attended, most of the people were 60 plus. The majority did not use the internet, and wanted a scheduled service, not demand responsive; they didn't like change. They were worried about social isolation, not being able to get to medical appointments or able to go shopping. They wanted reliability and stability, which are really important. Some people were in tears, and it was heartbreaking, saying they will have to move to the town. Providing a bus service helps people stay physically and mentally fit and independent in their own homes longer. It was at this point that I submitted a petition not only to the Minister for economy and transport, but also to the Minister for Health and Social Services. It called for the Welsh Government to regulate commercial bus service operators and give powers and funding to local authorities to run services that best suit the need of local people as they know them best. I was pleased to hear that the Government was looking at this.
Bus routes should be run for people, not for profit. Commercial routes could be grouped to include an element of social value, with contracts fixed for a time to give stability. That is why I'll be supporting today's amendment, which recognises the harm that privatisation has caused to public transport services in this country. We also need to note that public bus transport is hugely complicated and tied up with school transport, which subsidises the rest of the day. In Flintshire, there are 450 transport contracts, and 350 of those are school contracts that are integrated with public transport to make them viable. Twenty-five per cent of the population in Wales are totally dependent on public transport as the only means of transport. We need a far better system, which connects them and all public transport users to the wider communities, with reliability, stability and integrated ticketing to build confidence. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Good-quality public transport services do have a central role to play in terms of supporting health and well-being, eradicating social isolation and generally building up our communities. But they also have a central role to play in achieving a net-zero 2050. Road transport accounts for 10 per cent of global emissions, and those emissions are rising faster than any other sector. I was actually quite pleased with Alun Davies and his comments today, and wholeheartedly support the initiatives he was talking about in terms of electric buses.
Now, considerable progress has been made in delivering public transport to rural Aberconwy, thanks to the Fflecsi bus service. I know I've mentioned this before, but it really is a successful model. It's so proven, and I've encouraged the Deputy Minister previously to spread this model across rural Wales, including to the north of Eglwys Fach, so that other isolated communities can benefit from better links to urban hubs. The roll-out would be in line with the mini plan for buses, and in particular the pledge to deliver innovative more flexible bus services, in partnership with local authorities, the commercial and third sectors.
Where there is provision, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales has stated that, due to the availability and reliability of bus services often being scarce, there is now a lack of trust in public transport services. Older people are opting to travel to their health appointments by private vehicles, and this comes at a significant personal expense. And in areas where public transport services are available, a lack of basic facilities such as shelters, seating and timetable information makes travel by our buses an uncomfortable and more difficult experience than it needs to be.
I can vouch for this as I've seen first-hand many residents standing in the rain to catch a bus beside the A470 in Maenan, whilst further to the north in the village of Glan Conwy a bus stop has a digital screen. So, it just shows how there are good models out there but these need to be replicated. I am sure that each Member would be able to provide a list of bus stops with a lack of basic facilities and examples of the contrast between investment in urban and those in our rural areas. 'Llwybr Newydd' has a commitment to invest in bus stations and bus stops, so I would be grateful for some clarity as to how much funding is being invested in improving rural bus stops.
I have spoken previously about the problem we have with the last bus heading from Llandudno to the Conwy valley leaving at 6.40 of an evening, meaning that the two areas are now cut off by public transport for the rest of the night. Having liaised myself with service providers, it has been made clear to me that there is a lack of appetite now by people to work these much-needed late night shifts. So, a clear action plan is needed to support bus companies in recruiting drivers and somehow finding initiatives to encourage staff to work later shifts. This would be in line with the priority in 'Llwybr Newydd' to improve the attractiveness of the industry to more bus drivers.
Finally, in addition to facilitating the movement of locals, public transport has a key role to play in easing the pressure caused to rural areas by the wave of visitors that we thankfully see annually. For example, while Snowdonia is home to over 26,000 people, around 10 million people visit each year. The town of Llandudno, population of around 22,000—that grows to around 60,000 per year. The traffic and parking chaos caused is well documented, but there still remains a lack of common sense by this Welsh Government and Transport for Wales. Despite knowing that these millions make a beeline for our national park annually, you have still not agreed to introduce direct rail services from Holyhead port and Manchester Airport to Blaenau Ffestiniog. That would take the strain, and add to the visitor experience for our visitors. Such actions would enable Snowdonia to have truly international public transport gateways connecting one of the most spectacular areas of rural Wales to the rest of the world.
I do hope that we can start to see some proactive actions taken by the Deputy Minister. So many good ideas have been mentioned here today—

Will the Member conclude now, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: So, I call on the Deputy Minister now, we've had enough talk, let's please see some actions. Diolch.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm very grateful to my good friend from across the Chamber, James Evans, for tabling today's debate, and I genuinely believe bus services are and public transport is part of the wider key pillar of the wider initiative to create the green new deal that we need to see and deliver and act upon here in Wales, and the motion itself is a good motion, but I think anyone with a cursory knowledge of the bus industry would actually recognise that the amendment from my colleague Alun Davies does make the motion so much stronger. And I do find myself, Deputy Presiding Officer, having to vote against a motion I co-tabled and support to actually vote for the amendment, to make the motion stronger and get to the heart of the problem here in Wales. And let's be clear: the amendment is about scrapping the 1985 Transport Act, and it's a piece of deregulation dogma, and it's a piece of deregulation dogma that does belong in the history bin, and it's time we take that action now.
Llywydd, the 1985 Transport Act was the single worst moment for bus services across the United Kingdom, not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom. And it does still regulate our industry in our country here today, and that's what we're setting out to talk about. And if we look at what the Act sets out to achieve, it sets out to achieve making profit the only reason—the only reason—a bus route should exist. And this means that we plan our bus network almost entirely around profitable routes. Members have suggested that councils do and they can subsidise routes, but this does come from dwindling council budgets and after years, and many years, of austerity, which perhaps we won't go into today. You can very much guess what happened there, and I do look back to that 1985 Act and the time then, and the concept of public good was so offensive to that Government, in my eyes, that they passed this law to outlaw such attempts to deliver public good. It was delivered on complicated mechanisms that we still see today.
And I just want to bring up, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Member who tabled the motion rightly mentioned at the start we should seek to answer some of his questions, and I just wanted to go back: I do blame Margaret Thatcher and he will know I blame Margaret Thatcher for a lot of things, which I can't and don't have the time to go into today. But I tell the Member and I tell Members across the Chamber: I stand by my beliefs and so do many of my constituents. But if we look at the results of so many of her dreadful decisions, but certainly this dreadful decision, the nonsense behind it brought fewer services, poorer pay and conditions for our wonderful drivers, and less money to invest in new buses, buses that we've talked about, zero-emission buses, electric buses, that we all want to see in our communities from Blaenau Gwent to Alyn and Deeside.
So, I do urge Members across the Chamber today who have a genuine interest in bus travel to vote for the amendment. Again, I commend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire for tabling this motion today. But we cannot simply tolerate the situation we find ourselves in, so I do commend the motion, but I do call on Members from across political parties to recognise the importance of the motion, recognise the importance of the amended motion and vote for that amended motion when it comes to voting time later today. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'll start by declaring an interest as a Member of Pembrokeshire County Council and I'd like to thank the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire for granting me the opportunity to speak in this afternoon's debate, as I know it will be of great interest to many of my constituents.
Like many growing up in rural Wales, I was dependent on either infrequent and seasonable public transport, lifts from parents or even cycling come rain or shine to try and get to my part-time job when I was still in school. Therefore, it is little surprise that I took my driving test as soon as possible after turning 17 to give me freedom and independence, and I was fortunate to do so. However, for many of my constituents, the local bus service or the even rarer local train service is a lifeline. Whether it is used for their commute to work, visiting friends and family or just heading to do their shopping, public transport can be a major contributor to a person's well-being and standard of living, as the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire rightly highlighted.
One of the first meetings that I had after my election last May was to discuss the challenge facing businesses in the hospitality sector being able to fill employment gaps. A major takeaway from this meeting was that if a worker was working outside of the normal nine-til-six hours in Tenby, yet commuted from Haverfordwest, they were unable to get back home via bus, as the last service left before it got dark. If you consider the number of jobs servicing the night-time economy and hospitality industry in a town such as Tenby, then you will appreciate how much of a challenge this begins to present.
Some of the bigger employers such as Bluestone near Narberth have taken to hiring their own transport to help staff travel to and from work, but this is obviously not an option for the majority of small businesses. I would be interested in understanding what conversations the Deputy Minister has had with local authorities, such as Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire, to help support the hospitality sector in enabling staff to commute via public transport outside of the more traditional work hours.
I'd also like to use this opportunity to highlight the train service in south Pembrokeshire. My colleague Natasha Asghar joined me last summer to meet with a group of constituents at Tenby train station. They explained the challenges they faced in travelling up the main line towards east Wales, with concerns raised over the capacity of the trains and the timetabling. The group also highlighted the problems faced in travelling by train between south and mid Pembrokeshire. The simple 20-mile, 30-minute commute by car from Haverfordwest to Tenby on a weekday morning would take two hours and 15 minutes by train, or over an hour and half by bus in the morning. And that is for those who do not require additional journey time to get into Haverfordwest to start with.
Back in the autumn, plans were announced by the Deputy Minister to improve Wales's public transport infrastructure and connectivity, with news about station improvements at Haverfordwest, Milford Haven and Whitland, as well as a desire to add capacity on the Carmarthen to Milford Haven route. Whilst this is great news for my constituencyneighbour Paul Davies, the route between Pembroke Dock and Whitland seems to have been forgotten. My reasoning for focusing on Tenby this afternoon is as its train station is the busiest in Pembrokeshire and is the gateway to one of our crown-jewel seaside resorts. On the same train line is Pembroke Dock, a key location for travellers connecting to and from Ireland, yet these and other smaller stations along the south Pembrokeshire rail route will see no tangible benefits from the extra investment announced by the Deputy Minister.
A Wales-wide interconnected transport system is a vital tool in our fight against climate change, but before encouraging people out of their cars, there must be a public transport network ready and able to deliver for the needs of the people. As I've explained, travelling between north and south Pembrokeshire on public transport is incredibly challenging. It is important to the county's economy that south Pembrokeshire is treated equally to north Pembrokeshire in the development of a west Wales metro. At present, the plans seem to have ignored that Pembrokeshire that exists south of the River Cleddau.
Tomorrow, I host a round-table with local councillors and organisations to take on board their strength of feeling about rail services that are serving their communities. It would be great if, following today's debate, Deputy Minister, I could take back a message from you that the Welsh Government have not forgotten south Pembrokeshire and will provide the support and funding not only to upgrade the facilities, but to also increase the frequency of services using this line. Public transport plays a vital role in connecting our rural communities and reducing our carbon footprint. However, to achieve these goals, the services must be responsive to passengers' needs. Diolch yn fawr.

Hefin David AC: I don't think the purpose of an individual's Member's debate should always be to demonstrate unanimity amongst backbenchers across the Chamber, because there are always going to be differences between individuals. I make no apologies to James Evans for supporting the amendment from Alun Davies and, indeed, co-signing it, because it demonstrates a fundamental issue.
All of the examples that have been provided—and I'm looking across the screen now and I can see Conservative Members, I can see a Liberal Democrat, Labour Members—are demonstrating market failure, and the market failure is occurring because the market is unregulated. That is the reason for these issues and that is why that amendment gives the motion political backbone. Listening to Carolyn Thomas, I think this is where you could feel the heartfelt prize of someone who has fought these battles to get bus services in their community, as a cabinet member, to get these bus services up and running. You can see and hear the frustration from Carolyn in trying to get this happening, and that's exactly why I'm supporting this amendment. And I'm deeply offended, James Evans—look at me, James Evans, look up at the computer—I'm deeply offended by what you said when you said that deregulation happened 40 years ago, as if that was some distant time in the distant past. Well, actually, I'm 45 this year and I caught those buses, James Evans; I caught those buses that were run by Rhymney Valley district council. And they were reliable, they went to routes that no longer run now, and they were run by a public service. In 1986, after the Act that Jack Sargeantmentioned, Inter Valley Link was created as an arm's-length company—I know because my dad, as a councillor, was a director on the organisation. And on its own, it would have been successful, but the problem was that you had loads of other entrants into the market that came along and ran cheaper services on the same routes. And in 1990, Inter Valley Link went bust. Now, the reason Inter Valley Link went bust was because of the infiltration of the market by companies that were undercutting it. But do you know what happened next? They stopped running those routes. They stopped running those routes, and we saw all those routes collapse.
Now, through Welsh Government investment and through public sector investment, we have seen some bridging of those gaps in the market. James, do you want to intervene? Do you want to intervene? Yes. Go ahead.

James Evans MS: Thank you, Hefin. No offence taken. I'm glad you used to use those buses; I wish more people would use public transport to help us reduce the climate crisis. But one question I would ask you: do you then agree that the Labour Government failed then, between 1997 and 2009, in not re-regulating the bus service, and Gordon Brown and Tony Blair both failed in this sphere?

Hefin David AC: Yes, absolutely, I agree. And I think I'm more offended by the fact that you're younger than me than anything else. Yes, I do think it was a missed opportunity—absolutely, it was. I think that Government between 1997 and 2007 did some fantastic things, but they also didn't do things they could have done, and I think this is one of the things they could have done and they didn't do and should have been done. But the Deputy Minister there today has the opportunity to do it and I know it is his intention to do it. We need that re-regulation.
So, just coming back to the examples, the bus emergency scheme—and I can see Ken Skates there, who established the bus emergency scheme—that saved the bus industry. That saved the bus industry as it currently exists, following the pandemic. Without BES and without BES 2, you would not have a bus industry to build on right now, and that was because of the actions taken by the Welsh Government. So, we can look at our political predecessors and say, 'They should have done this' but that doesn't stop us doing things today and being bold.
So, when you look at the routes that happen—. I'm fed up of negotiating, of begging private sector providers, like Carolyn Thomas said, to provide routes that are non-profitable. I'm fed up of it; I'm constantly doing it. We're looking towards private providers to provide a route to the Royal Gwent from Pontypridd through Nelson and Islwyn and Cwmbran. We are looking to do that. We can do it; we can work hard to achieve it. But what we really need is a publicly provided service to fill in those gaps for us, and I think the re-regulation of bus services would allow that and that is what that Bill needs to do.
So, I say to James Evans, you can't help being younger than me, but you can make up for it by supporting our amendment. And I'd also like to say to Mabon ap Gwynfor, who is the only other non-Conservative, I think, whose signed the amendment—I think he's closing the debate today—[Interruption.] Yes, Rhys, but you supported the amendment. I'd ask Mabon: come and support that amendment too. We object to the motion only in order to vote for that amendment. That's really important, that we get that amendment through, because I think it will make a significant difference. So, we look forward to support across the Chamber.

Before I call the Deputy Minister, could I remind everyone that, as well as examples from Conservative and Labour Members and Liberal Democrats, there are Plaid Cymru Members also in this debate and I can see them on the screen, to be fair to all?

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much to the Members who've spoken and for bringing this debate. Again, I think we've shown in this Chamber cross-party concern and support for the plight of public transport and a will to improve it. I think that that is a precious thing that we should nurture. No doubt, we will disagree on some of the details and much of the debate has been spent on diagnosing who is to blame for past failures. But I think what we can all agree on is that it is through collective action that we can make things better, and I can assure Members that this Government is determined to do that.
Jane Dodds did say that she was worried that bus policy is not being treated with the urgency it needs, and I can assure her that is not the case. We will be bringing forward a bus White Paper, 'Bus Cymru', in the coming months, and we're taking a bit of time to do it, because we are working genuinely collaboratively with local authorities and with operators to design something that is going to work.

Lee Waters AC: James Evans, in his exchanges with Hefin David, and in his original contribution, posed the question: why didn't the Labour Government of the late 1990s rip up the fragmented system? I think what they did was a genuine attempt to use a partnership approach with operators to develop a different way of doing it. But I think we can say that partnership approach hasn't worked. We can see now in Manchester, four years on from bringing in a partnership franchise system, they're still not able to get it off the ground.
So, I think it's entirely right for us to say that different approaches have been tried to achieve a shared objective, and we are learning all the time about what works and what doesn't work. And, obviously, there is an interest as well in the privatised commercial sector in scuppering some of these plans—let's be clear about that. Legal actions are often brought by private operators against attempts to do this. There's often lobbying and various schemes are concocted to suggest that franchising properly isn't needed as partnerships can work, and I don't think that is the approach we should be following. That's what we're doing in this Government that is different from what's come before: looking at a continental model of a supervisory board rather than a local partnership board, an all-Wales approach, with TfW at its centre, but genuinely working through the different parts of local government, the county council level, the corporate joint committeelevel, the Welsh Government and TfW, to try between us to come up with a system that's going to work, that will allow franchising on a whole-area basis. Because the current privatised system really is the root of the problem, and that's where I agree with the amendment. Obviously, Government Ministers traditionally, in these debates, abstain on the motions, because they are backbench motions, and we'll continue that tradition today. But we certainly support the spirit of what's being argued this afternoon, and we need to move to a more planned and coherent basis.
Now, as Carolyn Thomas said in her very powerful contribution, I thought, rural bus services are rarely money makers, she said, but they are a lifeline. And that is absolutely right. And she quoted an example of an operator pulling out of a route and then demanding a subsidy 10 times greater than had previously been the case, and that just goes to show how the system is gamed by commercial operators, and that's what happens in a market, isn't it? And that's not to criticise the individual operators; that is what the market is set up to do. But, as Hefin David said in his well-made contribution, there is clear market failure, because the market is not serving the public interest. So, what we often see is operators competing for a small number of lucrative routes and then not running socially necessary routes.
Now, there was a time when there was sufficient public funding to be able to offer subsidies for these socially necessary routes, but, after 10 years of austerity, that discretionary funding simply isn't there. And often, I think—. We've seen Bridgend County Borough Council, where now commercial services only run; there is no funding available for subsidising routes, and that's been reflected in the nature of the bus network now that remains in that area. We don't want to see that. We want to see, as we can see in many functioning public transport systems across our near neighbours, a regular, reliable bus service. I note what Sam Kurtz said about the example of a part-time worker trying to get back from a late shift from Tenby where the system currently isn't good enough. We need it to be reliable, we need it to be regular, and we need it to be affordable. And do you know what? It's absolutely doable. Where there's a will, there's a way. This isn't too complicated to do; it's just we haven't been willing to spend the money necessary, or put the right regulatory structure in place in order for it to happen, and that's what we want to do. And this is where, I think, the particular focus of rural areas comes in, because much of what we've described applies to all parts of Wales.
In rural areas, there's an extra set of challenges. Now, you can have a perfectly functioning public transport system in rural areas. If you look at rural Germany or rural Switzerland, which are just as sparsely, if not more sparsely, populated as parts of rural Wales, they have villages there, small villages, with a regular hourly service, because that's what they've prioritised to do, and that's what they've done in their franchised systems, where they use profit-making services in towns to cross-subsidise loss-making services in rural areas, recognising there's a social need here.
The case, I think, for a proper bus system is as much about social justice as it is about tackling climate change. And I feel passionately about that, as, indeed, do Members right across the divide. So, let's work together to come up with something that's going to stand the test of time. So, we'll be bringing forward a White Paper, and, as I say, we are genuinely consulting with local authorities at the moment, and, when that is introduced to the Senedd, let's work together on a cross-party basis to see if we can strengthen it and make sure it is fit for purpose. And I will certainly promise to be in listening mode to work with you to see if it can be made even stronger. So, I can assure Members that we are taking it seriously, we are treating it urgently, but we want to get it right.
Now, Natasha Asghar made the argument that there's not enough funding for buses, and it's certainly true that even though we put in a significant amount of money—. In the last 15 months, we've prioritised more than £108 million to support the bus industry through COVID. As Hefin and Jack Sargeant rightly pointed out, were it not for that funding, the bus industry would have gone to the wall. That's on top of the £90 million we already spend annually in bus services provision, but that isn't enough to have the sort of bus service we want to see and that is seen on the continent. That is one of the reasons why we brought in the road review. And I realise not all Members have supported that, but the reason for doing that is we want to free up funding to put investment, to prioritise investment, in public transport. And, as I say gently, if I might, to Members across the Chamber, it is no good supporting high-level commitments to climate change if you're not prepared to follow through the necessary actions to make those commitments a reality. Shifting money away from road building towards better public transport is an absolute must if all the sentiments we've heard in this debate today are going to be translated into a properly functioning bus system. So, I hope Members will reflect on that.
Natasha Asghar said it's been seven months since the road review and we can't sit around. Well, she may be sitting around, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I'm certainly not and the board of the roads review panel certainly are not, because they are meeting regularly and they're taking the task intensely. They're about to publish an interim report and a full report by the summer, so they are working at pace.
Peter Fox made the point about a joined-up approach to bus services, and I was pleased to meet with Councillor Richard John, the leader of Monmouthshire, on Monday to talk about the particular plight of Monmouthshire, which is not well served by public transport—his successor—to understand the concerns that they have. And I do think—. I agree with his challenge that regional transport plans through the corporate joint committees have got a vital role to play in making the franchising system work.
I do believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've come to the end of my time, but I just want to repeat my thanks to all Members for agreeing on what the problem is. Now I think the challenge for us all is to come together to figure out the solution. Diolch.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has taken part in this debate this afternoon, and thank you to the Deputy Minister for his response. Thanks in particular to James Evans, the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, for putting forward the motion in such a cross-party manner.
It's a very important debate, because not only does it introduce a simple solution of how to connect people between point A and point B, but it does so much more than that. Providing effective and smooth-running public transport in rural areas also helps us to get to grips with some of the other fundamental problems facing us with regard to economic growth, providing employment, physical and mental health, and education and so much more.
We heard many presentations by a number of people. I won't be able to go through every contribution, of course, but James opened the debate by talking about his conversations with that body that represents women here in Wales, the WI, and how members of the WI are dependent on public transport, very often, and specifically the way that they have looked at loneliness and isolation in our communities amongst older people, and how a lack of public transport is impacting that cohort.
Jane Dodds spoke about her proposal that was discussed previously and the fact that we need free public transport on buses for those under 25 years of age, and she put forward alternative solutions to this problem. Carolyn spoke very powerfully about her personal experiences on the cabinet in Flintshire. She spoke about how bus companies now only look to make a profit, but we need more in terms of services, and that the demand for bus services to connect communities and ensure that people have access to services is more important than profit—people over profit,that'swhat she said.
We heard very powerful contributions from Jack Sargeant and Hefin David talking about the deregulation that took place during Margaret Thatcher's time in office, and how that was damaging. I, certainly, therefore, will be supporting the amendment.
Sam Kurtz spoke about the fact that public transport is vital for people in rural areas in order to access employment, and he spoke about his personal experience. And then, thank you to the Deputy Minister for his response. He talked about the roads review, of course. I, too, in the context of Llanbedr,am very aware of that, and I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy Minister to come to Llanbedr with me so that we can try to find an alternative solution to the problem in that place.
But, that aside, if we are serious about getting to grips with the climate change crisis and ensure that Wales plays its part, then we have to decrease our over-reliance on private transport, as a number of people have mentioned today. As things stand, there's no choice for people in rural areas but to use their cars.
Between 2010 and 2018, public expenditure on buses declined by £10 million. According to figures from the Campaign for Better Transport, there was a decline of almost 70 per cent in public funding given to buses over this period across Wales, with Monmouthshire seeing a decline of over 65 per cent of cuts, Flintshire seeing a decline of 51 per cent, and, indeed, in some counties and rural areas, we saw a cut of 100 per cent in public subsidy, for example in Wrexham and Neath Port Talbot. This, therefore, isn't sustainable, and it's the poorest and most vulnerable in our society who are suffering the most. One of the best services is to be had in London, of course, where, as we know, deregulation didn't take place under Thatcher, and that case has been made.
Over the past summer in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, we saw hospitality businesses having to close during the tourism season. Why? Well, when our office spoke to them, they told us that people couldn't get to their workplaces. There were restaurants that were unable to open because people lived far away and they didn't have transport. I spoke to the job centre in Porthmadog and they said that the major challenge for their clients in looking for work was the ability to reach those workplaces and the lack of public services to enable them to do so.
I've spoken several times about the excellent work that the Gisda charity does. A consultation was undertaken with young people looking at mental health, and the young people of Gwynedd said that the major challenge in terms of their mental health is the lack of access to the services that they need because they're so far removed from them and they can't get transport to them.
The case has been made clear and a number of people have given a number of solutions today. I would ask the Deputy Minister, as he prepares the White Paper—and fair play to the Deputy Minister for talking about rural areas—to consider Peter Fox's proposal that specific consideration be given to developing a rural strategy in that White Paper. So, thank you very much to James Evans for bringing forward this debate this afternoon and to everyone for their contribution. I'm very grateful for that. I will be supporting the amendment, and I would encourage everyone else to support the amendment, and, therefore, the motion. I look forward to the vote. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is objection, therefore I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The impact of COVID on education

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

Item 7 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate: the impact of COVID on education. I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the motion.

Motion NDM7895 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets the adverse impact of COVID-19 restrictions on children and young people across Wales, including:
a) learners in Wales missing more days of their education than elsewhere in the UK during the pandemic;
b) Estyn’s conclusion that learners’ maths, reading, Welsh language and social skills have all suffered as a result of school closures.
2. Notes the persistent per pupil funding shortfall between Wales and other parts of the UK.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to take action to overcome the impact of the pandemic on Welsh learners to ensure that every young person can reach their potential, by:
a) guaranteeing that schools will remain open;
b) removing the requirement to wear face coverings in schools and colleges as soon as possible;
c) accelerating the rollout of improved ventilation adaptations in learning environments;
d) levelling up school funding across Wales to address the shortfall between Wales and other UK nations.

Motion moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move this Welsh Conservative motion in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. I welcome this opportunity today to open this incredibly important debate at a critical time for education in Wales. I do find it concerning that the Welsh Conservatives have had to use their time allocation to talk about education as it's the only opportunity that we've had to highlight concerns to the Minister for education who, apart from the questions earlier, has been hiding behind written statements so far this year.
With the restrictions remaining in place in our schools in Wales, unlike in England, it is arguably of paramount importance that, as a Senedd, we have the opportunity to scrutinise current restrictions and concerns in arguably one of, if not the most important responsibilities of this Government. The motion aims to highlight the adverse effect that COVID-19 and restrictions have had on children and young people across Wales and the persistent per-pupil funding shortfall between Wales and other parts of the UK. Crucially, this motion calls on the Welsh Government to take action to overcome the impact of the pandemic on Welsh learners.
Deputy Presiding Officer, do I see a problem?

Yes, we haven't got the Minister, so I'd rather hold until we have the Minister.

Laura Anne Jones AC: No worries. I could see by your face that something was wrong.

Yes, the Minister doesn't seem to be visible on my screen, so I want to make sure he's here to be taking in the full debate. Ah, here he comes. So, Laura, I'm going to ask you to start again. I'm sorry, but I think it's important that you start from the beginning so the Minister's in fully and up to date totally, okay.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Absolutely. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move this Welsh Conservatives motion in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. I welcome this opportunity to open this incredibly important debate today at a critical for education in Wales. I do find it concerning that the Welsh Conservatives had to use their time allocation to talk about education, as it's the only opportunity we've had to highlight concerns to the Minister for education who, apart from questions earlier, has been hiding behind written statements so far this year.
With the restrictions remaining in place in our schools in Wales, unlike in England, it is arguably of paramount importance that, as a Senedd, we have the opportunity to scrutinise current restrictions and concerns in arguably one of, if not the most important responsibilities of this Government. The motion aims to highlight the adverse effects that COVID-19 and the restrictions have had on children and young people across Wales, and notes the persistent per-pupil funding shortfall between Wales and other parts of the UK. Crucially, this motion calls on the Welsh Government to take action to overcome the impact of the pandemic on Welsh learners, to ensure that every young person can reach their full potential and have the very best start in life.
Although unfortunately not in the motion laid before you, one of the most significant adverse effects of this pandemic has been on the preparedness for the most seismic change in education for a generation, the new Curriculum for Wales, which launches within months. Following conversations I've had with many school leaders and teachers, they are very concerned with the lack of support that they have had now during these final stages of preparation, particularly due to all the extra pressures put upon them at the moment, and also the lack of any explanation from this Welsh Government on what exams will look like in the future, to enable them to properly prepare for their lessons accordingly.
Although more flexibility is greatly welcomed, it is a completely new way of working that is a far cry from how teaching has been for many decades. There's really no doubt now that there does need to be more clarity during these final stages of preparations so that teaching staff can themselves feel prepared, and to ensure that pupils are armed with the skills and knowledge they will need for those exams. With no clarity over the future of qualifications, secondary schools in particular, and with good reason, cannot immerse themselves fully into the curriculum design and development process—already a struggle for many due to pandemic pressures. There absolutely has to be an end goal, and we need to be seeing that clear goal as soon as possible. Teachers are craving this direction, and there needs to be a coherent, national professional learning offer available to school staff in Wales.
Also, there is currently no clear understanding on how far subsidiarity, the bedrock of this new curriculum, can be stretched at school level. Fundamental things need to be addressed so that plans can be put in place as soon as possible, particularly due to the fact that planning time has been missed through no fault of this Government or teaching staff. I'm going off the point of how COVID has affected children and young people of Wales, you may think. But, no, the fact that preparing for the new Curriculum for Wales has taken a back seat is very concerning and a worrying impact that this pandemic has had over the last two years.
Everyone wants the new curriculum to succeed, but the Minister must realise, as well as throwing in extra money, that more direction is now needed. With all the pressures of this pandemic, staff absences, pupil absences, the rise in home schooling and missed education, we now need this Government to throw everything it has at education to ensure that our children get the very best start in life, an education that gives them opportunities on a par at least with the rest of the UK, if not, hopefully, better.
Unfortunately, we're not starting with much of an advantage. Learners in Wales have missed more days of their education last year than anywhere else in the UK—66 days, over a third of the school year. This cannot but have a significant detrimental impact on our learners. This is evident from recent conclusions from the Estyn report, which identified that learner skills in Wales have suffered in maths, reading, Welsh language and social skills—all a result of school closures. This is very worrying. Unfortunately, Wales has been lagging far behind the rest of the UK in educational terms for decades now, and although the education Minister previously expressed some happiness that Wales had met the average Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development level for reading and oracy, for me, this is far from okay. Former Soviet bloc countries are on that same level. We should be way above that, at a minimum on a par with Scotland and England. There really is no excuse not to be.

Laura Anne Jones AC: The Welsh Government's persistent per-pupil shortfall between Wales and other parts of the UK is also just not good enough. But it's not surprising from a party that made us the only country in the UK to have ever cut an education budget.Until the recent budget, for every £1 spent in England, Wales receives £1.20. As a result, education spending per pupil in Wales should be at least £1,000 more compared to England.
Children have suffered a lot during this pandemic, with their education, mental health and important milestone changes. My own two-year-old missed out on meeting new children of his age nearby due to baby classes being cancelled. My other son wasn't able to celebrate his last year in primary school. Lots of milestones and nativity plays and important occasions were missed out on—trivial, you may think, but it all has had an impact on the children and parents by not going ahead.
The lack of electronic devices and bad broadband are also major problems and barriers to learning that the pandemic has highlighted, amongst many other inequalities across this country. The pandemic has also thrown up and highlighted major problems of safety of children, and of the quality of education that children can receive at home. Also, the pandemic has made us all realise just how important school and school life is, not just in terms of education, but for the mental health of our children.
Many home schooled children do well, and it works for some families, including a colleague of mine, but there is now a worrying rise in home education, and I say 'worrying' as recently it is often being done by parents as a reaction to having to wear masks in schools, or worries about the virus, not as a choice about what is best for their children, their education, their family and future prospects. Due to this trend, I'd be very interested to hear stats from the Minister as to how this Government measure how qualified these parents wanting to do home schooling now are, how regular inspections are, how progress is monitored, and whether there'll be anything done to encourage re-enrolling into schools. As recent data shows, 4,000 five to 15-year-olds in 2021 were home schooled, up 60 per cent from 2018-19. This is clearly a steep rise, so I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he's going to address this urgently.
I welcome this year's increase in the education budget, but still wonder if it will be enough really to claw back the time missed and to deal with all the numerous, massive changes we are seeing in education at the moment, namely, the new curriculum, the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, ventilation adaptations, mental health, and I could go on. We welcome the money for ventilation adaptations, but some degree of urgency needs to be attached to it as we're still seeing children sitting in coats and jackets in freezing temperatures, with all the windows and doors open in our schools and colleges. This is simply not right—not right for their well-being, and not sustainable.
Another major concern and impact of the pandemic has been the increase in waiting times for children to be seen by an neurodevelopmental treatment specialist. There is currently a two-year-plus waiting list for children to see an NDT specialist, which is storing up significant issues for the future, and, in my opinion, putting children's learning and life chances at significant risk. Without the NDT appointments we have children who are being clinically identified as autistic or having ADHD, resulting in poorer levels of understanding and provision, thus creating a scenario where children are simply not being adequately supported to thrive, which I know teachers are finding extremely frustrating. Personally, I don't think this is good enough in this day and age. We must get these fundamental things right before we look to headline-grabbing schemes.
I welcome recent moneys being put towards this, and the changes to the system to identify, but we cannot let any more children slip through the net. This couldn't be more urgent, particularly, as was said in the education questions earlier, for vulnerable children. Their vulnerabilities are only being exacerbated by this pandemic, so it is vital that we get support in place and that this is sped up for children.
One of the main concerns we all share, as is apparent from the amendment, is children and young people's mental health, and staff too. Whilst schools are able to use the Recruit, Recover, Raise Standards money to support children through targeted well-being issues, the wider concern is where schools go from there, as without the clinical support for children with significant mental health issues, we're simply putting sticking plasters over a gaping wound. There needs to be a root-and-branch review of child and adolescent mental health services in Wales. This is not a 'now' problem, but one that will have consequences for generations.
I find it concerning that, recently, the focus of this Government has been all wrong: new sexuality education that erases women, the left-wing rehashing of our history that's about to be introduced to our children, and a new curriculum that teachers still have no clear guidance on how to implement.
Another concerning impact for our children in terms of current restrictions here in Wales is face masks in classrooms. UK Government evidence and even Welsh scientific advisers have said that they make minimal difference in classrooms. But because this Government are too scared to stand up to the unions and heed scientific advice, our children are still having to wear masks in classrooms all day. This can have a detrimental impact on learning and learners, with it restricting communication between teachers and pupils and pupil-to-pupil communication. It is also deeply uncomfortable and restrictive to wear them for hours on end.
Surely, there needs to be a 'balance of harms' approach here with the decision coming from the top, as it will put our schools and local authorities in difficult positions otherwise. Given the strength of feeling on masks from either camp, I think that this decision should be made nationally. Having taken many different approaches, it will do pupils no favours and create disparities across the nation, upset as well confusion. I would say to the Minister that some things require local solutions, but issues such as face masks require—demand, actually—a national approach.
Of course, there will be local school-by-school solutions to many things, as I've said, but the feedback that I'm getting is that this Government needs to have more leadership, more detail in what is being asked of schools and children, a greater effort to speed up the help for significant concerns over children's mental health, and address the waiting times for additional learning needs, for those waiting right now to be identified as soon as possible so that they get the specialist help that they need. This needs to be urgently addressed.
We're now at the stage where we need more than just commitment; we need detailed plans for reform and support. Schools need to know the parameters in which they're working and education provision needs to be equal. Action is needed now more than ever to avert further disruption to our learners' education and to avert the mental health crisis in our schools, with the impact of increased social media as well as many other factors during lockdown starting to now show. The mental health impact on our children and young people is one that will last for decades.
I urge Members across this Chamber to support our motion today and thank all of you in advance for contributing to this important debate. It's important that we have the opportunity to debate these crucial educational concerns that we all have. Thank you.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
1. Regrets the adverse impact of COVID-19 on children and young people’s learning and well-being.
2. Believes that the Welsh Government must continue to take appropriate measures to ensure face to face teaching is prioritised and that decisions to reduce COVID protections in schools must be taken in accordance with the data.
3. Believes that prioritising the wellbeing of pupils and staff is essential as we respond to the pandemic.
4. Notes the Education Policy Institute’s findings that Wales is spending the largest amount per pupil on education recovery in the UK.
5. Welcomes that the Welsh Government recently announced:
a) £50 million additional capital funding to enable schools to undertake repair and improvement work, with a focus on health and safety measures, such as improving ventilation;
b) £45 million additional revenue funding to support schools as they continue to deal with the ongoing impacts of the pandemic and to prepare for the requirements of the new curriculum.

Amendment 1 moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Formally.

I call on Heledd Fychan to move amendments 2 and 3.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Delete point 1 and replace with:
Regrets the adverse impact of COVID-19 restrictions on children and young people across Wales.

Amendment 3—Siân Gwenllian
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that any future impacts of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic on children and young people, in particular in relation to learning and mental health, are minimised by investing in:
a) air filtration technology to ensure that every effort is made to keep schools open and safe;
b) mental health provision to prioritise mental health and wellbeing.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: I move formally the amendments tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. As is apparent from the motion and the two amendments, our three parties are agreed that we regret the detrimental impact that the COVID-19 restrictions have had on children and young people across Wales. It has been, and continues to be, a period of great uncertainty for all of them and it is important that we prioritise providing the vital support that they need. However, even though COVID has brought additional challenges, it is important today that we also acknowledge that things weren’t perfect before the pandemic. Schools' budgets were already under pressure, and, as we all know, child poverty continues to be a pressing problem that impacts learners. And listening to Laura Jones talking about children being cold in the classrooms because of the need for ventilation, what about the role of UK Government now in terms of the fact that they are cold at home too? We've seen the shortfall in retaining that £20 uplift in universal credit and the rising cost of living. This is a wider problem. It's not just because of COVID, and there is a responsibility on the UK Government in terms of supporting our children here in Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: I think there also needs to be some myth busting here regarding some of the claims in the Conservative motion. The motion notes a so-called
'persistent per pupil funding shortfall between Wales and other parts of the UK.’
In 2018, Institute of Fiscal Studies analysis concluded that once London is discounted, there is virtually no difference in per-pupil funding between Wales and England. In terms of recovery funding, let's get our facts straight: the Welsh Government has allocated a further £38 million in 2022-23 for the education sector’s response to the pandemic, which follows around £190 million in 2021-22 and £220 million in 2020-21. While this level of funding is less than what some experts warn is needed, the Education Policy Institute estimated in April 2021 that the Welsh Government needs to spend £600 million to £900 million. The EPI also reported in June 2021 that funding for COVID educational recovery per learner in Wales is the highest of the four UK nations. In this regard, the EPI wrote that total education recovery
'planned spending per pupil is currently highest in Wales (£400 per pupil), followed by England (£310 per pupil), whilst it is about £230 in Scotland and Northern Ireland.'
So, some of the claims made in the Conservative motion are just false. While the Welsh Government could of course go much, much further, the funding is to be welcomed.

Heledd Fychan AS: I would now like to turn to the Plaid Cymru amendments. We know that one of the key ways that we can decrease the spread of COVID-19, including the omicron variant, in schools, colleges and early years settings is to ensure that they are well ventilated. Good ventilation prevents the virus from remaining in the air and infecting people. A number of parts of school buildings are already well ventilated, with plenty of airflow, and we can now monitor the remaining areas using carbon dioxide monitors, in which the Welsh Government has at last invested. But, what should a school do when it identifies an area that is not well ventilated? Well, guidance and common sense suggest that the simple solutions are simple steps, such as opening doors and windows. But is this possible in every school?
If the issue cannot be easily solved, schools are advised to look at what work can be done to improve ventilation. This could include investing in vents, doors or windows. And, in this regard, I welcome the £50 million recently announced for local authorities through the sustainable communities for learning programme to help schools with the refurbishment and capital improvements, focusing on health and safety measures, such as improving ventilation. Schools will also benefit from investment that aims to make them more creative and person-centred environments that are warmer and more welcoming. But, in the long term, we need to promote good ventilation and better air quality, and prioritise natural daylight, because all of these factors have a significant impact on performance in school settings, as well as on air quality.
The pandemic is not over yet, and COVID continues to be a real and present danger. Who is to say when the next variant might come, or even when the next pandemic might threaten our population, including our younger citizens? We need to ensure that our schools are as safe as possible, not just now but for the future.

Heledd Fychan AS: The pandemic and subsequent school closures have had a devastating effect on the mental health of children and young people. Parents have said that, among children and young people, suicidal thoughts, self-harm, eating disorders, excessive exercise and anxiety all started as a result of uncertainty about school life, school work, exams and fear during the pandemic. Children now need professional mental health help but are hampered by long waiting lists for appointments with child and adolescent mental health services. We know that the data shows that the waiting times are far too long.
So, today, I would ask all of us to set aside any political point-scoring the original motion and the Government amendment may be trying to achieve and that we unite behind Plaid Cymru’s amendments that recognise the crisis and commit us all to working together to find both short-term and long-term solutions to support our children and young people.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this important debate this afternoon. As a parent, I'm fully aware of the impact the pandemic has had on younger generations, but thankfully my son is young enough not to have suffered any major detriment to his education. But, older children and young people aren't that lucky. As parents, we always worry about our children's future, but the pandemic has compounded that worry exponentially. Despite the fact that young children are less likely to catch COVID or spread it, and those children who do catch the virus are more likely to have no symptoms, Governments insisted on shutting schools for long periods, exams have been cancelled and learning curtailed, disrupting children's education and development at a critical time in their young lives.
While there was some justification for such measures two years ago when we knew very little about COVID, there is absolutely no justification for it now. As early as July 2020, medical studies were showing that children were significantly less likely to become infected than adults. When they did catch COVID, they were more likely to have a more transient upper respiratory infection with minimal viral shedding. The data continued to grow as more and more studies were conducted, and by the middle of last year the evidence was clear that children under 10 are not vectors in the spread of COVID.
For older children and young people, it was more of a mixed bag. While they can spread COVID, they are more likely to be asymptomatic, yet we carried on closing schools to stop children spreading the virus, with little to no regard of the impact this was having on their development. Despite the fact that those most vulnerable to this disease had already been vaccinated, our children lost out on a third of their schooling during the last academic year, as the Welsh Government continued to overreact to the pandemic. Their failures and lack of leadership will have done untold damage to an entire generation of children and young people.
Yesterday, the Welsh Government unveiled their plan for schools, but rather than returning to schools to pre-pandemic settings, they have decided to dither, to delay and to pass the buck. The clarity wanted and needed by parents and children has instead been replaced by further uncertainty. Their statement can be summed up as this: 'Things will continue as they are for the next three weeks and we'll pass the buck on to schools and education authorities; they can decide what restrictions are necessary'. There is no question on what decision has to be made. There has to be a complete removal of all restrictions, and it's high time that we learnt to live with this virus.
In a bad flu season, we sadly see as many deaths as we do with COVID, yet we don't panic and close schools, force children to sit in freezing classrooms or stand outside in the rain for an hour. It's time to end unnecessary and unfair restrictions, it's time to return our children's education to normal and it's time to stop overreacting. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just want to clarify whether this is a debate about the impact of COVID on young people and their education, or whether it's a rant about the bits of the curriculum that the Conservatives don't like, because I think there's a bit of confusion in my mind, or rather in Laura Jones's mind, on this matter.
I completely agree that it was disappointing that learners in Wales missed more days of their education than elsewhere in the UK during the first year of the pandemic, as highlighted by the Centre for Economic Performance. But, that report also confirms that the greatest learning loss was experienced by the most vulnerable learners. I just didn't hear in the previous contribution from Gareth Davies what he might have done to safeguard vulnerable learners, because I recall very clearly that the school hubs we set up at the beginning of the emergency worked well for key workers in essential services, including people in health, food and retail, and that they were, no doubt, located in the right place to enable those key workers to go to work whilst their children kept learning in a school.
But, who thought that vulnerable learners would turn up at a key worker hub? It was never going to happen. One of the definitions of deprivation is a reluctance to leave the community where you live from one year to the next, and vulnerable children with disruptive lives need the reassurance of the place and the teachers that they trust and are familiar with. They were never going to turn up in a place where they knew no-one. The Minister will be aware that I harangued and lobbied his predecessor on this, and fair play to Kirsty Williams, she changed the rules, and in subsequent lockdowns after the first one, all schools were allowed to remain open for all key worker children and all vulnerable children.
For the second year of the pandemic, I hope that the Centre for Economic Performance will repeat its analysis so that we can see a rather different picture. Because whilst Wales has been by far the most successful country in suppressing omicron, the UK Government's laissez-faire approach has let omicron run rip in England, and anecdotally this has had a devastating impact on school attendance, and not just on the attendance by pupils. It has also eliminated whole swathes of teachers from the classroom, including my daughter, who tested positive for COVID this morning. It is inevitable that if your job includes comforting children who are not feeling well and who then turn out to test positive, your chances of catching COVID are very—

Jenny, will you take an intervention?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Yes.

Gareth. Can Gareth Davies be unmuted, please? Sorry, Jenny. Can Gareth Davies be unmuted, please?

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Could Jenny Rathbone perhaps substantiate that claim that omicron has somehow ravaged wildly in England compared to Wales? Do you have any science or statistics to back up your claim?

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think it's a bit early for statistics. I'm just telling you about the experience of both Preston hospital and all the schools in Essex, because that is where my daughter teaches. I can tell you that the supply teaching agencies are simply unable to supply the schools with the people they need. They are desperately ringing everybody around to see if anybody will work extra hours or extra days because there are simply not enough people to keep teachers in front of pupils in the classroom. So, it has absolutely had a massive impact, both on children and also on their teachers.
And then I hear you say—. I think it was you, or your colleague was saying, that we shouldn't be requiring COVID passes in schools, that that has to end. We absolutely have an obligation to maintain—. Sorry, I beg your pardon: requiring masks in school, that that has to end immediately, that all restrictions—that was you—should be lifted on this, because we have an obligation to teachers. If they're prepared to go in and risk their health by going into places where we know that we're not going to have COVID passes in place, for obvious ethical reasons, then we have an obligation to ensure that we are keeping the workplace in school as safe as possible, and face masks is one of the tools with which they do that, as well as bubbling year groups and all the rest of it. So, I cannot understand why Laura Anne Jones yet again repeated the laissez-faire mantra of the extreme libertarians down in Westminster who resist any restraint on personal liberty, even when they expect different restrictions for other people. We owe it to our teachers to maintain face coverings in place. Until the data tells us that it is no longer necessary, that is on what we base our rules, and we have to ensure that the maximum number of children are in place, and that we are doing the maximum to repair all the damage, so—

Jenny, you need to conclude now.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. Just to say that it is completely untrue that Wales has lower funding. As the Labour motion points out, we are spending much more money on trying to repair the inevitable damage that has taken place amongst our children and we should all regret that. But the things that we need to do: employing more youth workers, employing more counsellors, ensuring that we are promoting play as a way of recovering from COVIDare really important ways of helping young people and children recover from the appalling pandemic.

James Evans MS: From the outset, it must be noted that there has been chronic underfunding from the Welsh Labour Government in our schools and education system. For every £1 spent in England, Wales receives £1.20. As a result, education spending per pupil in Wales should be at least £1,000 per annum more, compared to England. However, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, every young person in Wales receives £100 less than their counterparts in England, mostly because of Welsh Government bureaucracy. As announced in the recent UK budget, the UK Conservative Government has committed to increasing the Welsh Government budget by £2.5 billion per year on average for the next three years. This is the largest annual funding settlement increase since devolution began and on top of an additional baseline funding of £1.9 billion, and let's hope that that money goes into our schools.
Turning to the current restrictions in place in our education establishments, the lack of Welsh Government preparation is having a negative impact on the education of our children and young people in Wales. Welsh Conservatives would end the mandatory wearing of face masks in our schools. Masks in a classroom stop children and young people in Wales enjoying a normal experience in the classroom. It continues to stifle their development. The mental health of children has suffered enough—

James, will you take an intervention from Jenny Rathbone?

James Evans MS: Yes, two seconds. Children in Wales deserve to live in an open and inclusive environment. I will take an intervention from Jenny Rathbone, yes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, James. Did you not hear me when I said earlier: we need face masks in order to prevent COVID spreading in the classroom, both to fellow pupils and also to protect staff? Otherwise, we'll have the situation we've got in parts of England where there are just swathes and swathes of children and staff off with COVID.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank Jenny for her intervention. However, we do need to start to learn to live with COVID. We don't put masks on in school for any other type of infection or disease that comes forward, so I don't think that is needed at the moment. And I echo the words of the shadow Minister for education, Laura Jones, who's been vocal against the decision by this Labour Government to make schoolchildren continue to wear face masks until March. This Government is passing the buck of responsibility on to our schools and creating differences across Wales, where some schools have no masks and others have masks. This Government must take responsibility and stop treating children differently to the rest of the population. We are seeing the damaging mental health figures in young people coming out, and forcing children to wear masks is not helping the situation. We've already heard about the CAMHS waiting list times; this is all because our children are under pressure time and time again.
Welsh Labour Ministers overreacted to omicron. We cannot just keep having restrictions when other parts of the UK are opening up. And sadly for the people of Wales, Welsh Labour's decision recently has been all about the politics and not about the science. Just today, Welsh Government announced plans to reduce isolation periods to five days; something to celebrate, but weeks behind the curve, which has caused problems for young people and also those people working in England. And we in the Welsh Conservatives are the only party calling for freedom, freedom and openness in this Senedd, as others in this Senedd continue to toe the Welsh Labour Government line.

James, will you take another intervention from Heledd Fychan?

James Evans MS: Yes, why not?

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you. Does James Evans have any concerns around the impact of long COVID on children? I'm not sure if you heard yesterday Adam Price state that research estimates that between 10 and 20 per cent of children who contract COVID-19 developed paediatric long COVID. Are you so cavalier with the health of our children that you don't care, and say that we have to live with this?

James Evans MS: I do take offence that I don't care about the actual future and health of our children. We in Welsh Conservatives do care about the health and well-being of our children and that's why in this place we have called time and time again for actually the mental health of our children and the health of children to be prioritised by this Labour Welsh Government.
And I just want to briefly discuss the Plaid Cymru amendment, Deputy Llywydd. The amendment talks of future impacts, but the negative effects of COVID and Welsh Labour and Plaid's restrictions here are here and now. Children in Wales have already missed more schooling than any other UK nation and the ongoing face-mask requirement continues to stifle children in their learning environments. We're not simply disagreeing with the Welsh Labour Government, we're offering alternatives. The Welsh Conservatives have been very clear in setting out what we believe should be done. The Minister should implement some of our actions, guaranteeing that schools remain open, removing the requirement to wear face coverings, accelerating the roll-out of improved ventilation adaptions in our learning environments, and levelling up school funding across Wales to address the shortfalls between Wales and the other UK nations.
Deputy Llywydd, the Welsh Conservatives have a clear plan, a plan this Welsh Labour Government should adopt, and I urge every colleague in this Chamber today to support the Welsh Conservatives' motion this afternoon. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

Tom Giffard AS: I hope you don't mind if I start my contribution by thanking Members from across the Siambr for their kind words and well wishes during my recent stay in hospital. It meant a lot to me, and it's very good to be back today.
It's also good to be back participating in a Welsh Conservative debate today on the impact of COVID on education. Parents, pupils and, in particular, teaching staff have really risen to the challenge of working differently and competing with ever-changing rules and regulations to meet that difficult balance between providing an excellent education and keeping themselves and others safe. And so have communities. And I wanted to take the opportunity to praise the work of local volunteers and community groups in helping out at short notice when the pandemic first hit to make the reality of virtual learning happen. A key example would be the Porthcawl COVID-19 action group in my region who sourced and donated computers and laptops to school-aged pupils who would perhaps have otherwise been unable to access online classes. So, a big thank you to them and to the other groups that I know across Wales who helped ensure that young people got an education, despite the restrictions that were brought about by the pandemic.
But I wanted to focus my remarks today on the impact of school closures. Because we all know the value of a single school day. The lessons learnt, whether they're on the curriculum or not, are invaluable and incomparable, and last year in Wales, pupils lost, as Laura Anne Jones said, 66 of those days due to COVID-19 measures in place in Wales, which is more time in the classroom lost than in any other part of the UK. And as we mentioned in our motion, Estyn have made clear that that meant that learners' maths, reading, Welsh language and social skills have all suffered as a result of school closures. But the truth is we just don't know yet how significant the impact will be in the long term. Because even despite the fantastic efforts of parents, teachers and pupils, learning virtually just isn't the same as being in a classroom.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies predicted that current learners are likely to earn less, and estimated that this difference could be up to £40,000. This lost learning across the 66 days has resulted in long-term prospects of children being affected significantly. They've also predicted that the financial cost of students in Wales sufficiently catching up with the schooling they've missed would be around £1.4 billion, but even then, that would likely result in students being overburdened with work and necessary pressure to catch up on the skills and work that they had not the chance to learn in the first instance.
Now, frankly, you can't put a price on the influence of a good teacher in the classroom and the ways in which they can not only educate, but shape a life and a future in a way that just isn't possible over Zoom. And while most parents have stepped up to the plate in helping their children as best as they can to make sure they're not losing out by not being in school, the reality is that these are the same people that are very often dealing with a number of other changes and challenges in their professional life and their societal and family commitments as a result of the wider impacts of COVID. Even though many parents and carers did manage to juggle working from home with childcare and education that would have otherwise been provided by schools prior to the pandemic, not all young learners were that lucky. And these were often the same learners who perhaps would benefit most from a regular school day and the influence of a good teacher.
But it isn't just learning the societal skills that we have. The schools are often the only places where young people engage in sport and exercise. We've discussed a number of times in the Siambr the benefits of sport and exercise, both for physical and mental health, but also developmentally and the importance of things like team work and bonding. These are just some of the reasons why it's so important going forward. We need to ensure that we don't ever end up in a situation where schools are again forced to close because of COVID. Advances in treatments and the phenomenal UK-wide vaccine roll-out have mitigated the impact of COVID, and many teaching staff now just want to teach pupils in their classroom, because they too realise the impact that school closures have had.
But also for our current generation, for the pupils that have already been affected, we simply can't afford a generation of COVID children whose education has been significantly impacted by the pressures of coronavirus. That's why we need a plan from the Welsh Government to take action to overcome the impact the pandemic has already had on Welsh learners, and that's why I'm asking Members from across the Chamber to back our motion today.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. It's very true that schools and students have faced serious disruption in light of the pandemic, and it has been a very difficult situation in many schools and for many of our young people. The decisions taken at a national level, the national regulations and the national guidance that we have put in place as a Government here in Wales have been based on data and scientific and medical advice.

Jeremy Miles AC: That includes the use of face coverings, and I worry that Laura Anne Jones's view on that so often is simply, 'For Wales, see England'. Advocating the approach of the Government for England in relation to face coverings seems especially reckless on a day when COVID-related absence in England's schools is at its highest point since the start of the academic year. We want pupils to be in schools and our focus has been on ensuring that schools, colleges and education settings are safe places to learn and to work. We've provided the guidance and funding to help settings be safe and accessible for learning, be that at home or, when needed, face to face.

Jeremy Miles AC: Our aim throughout has been to maximise learning and to minimise disruption for our young people, and we haven't done that alone, of course. All our partners, all education staff in Wales, I want to thank for their extraordinary efforts over the course of the pandemic. We absolutely understand the extra pressure that schools face at the moment. I provided planning days at the start of this term to help consider the measures that would be needed over the course of these weeks to keep our people safe.
We're aware of the staffing pressures that COVID has brought; we continue to work, Dirprwy Lywydd, closely with local authorities and supply agencies to help alleviate this. The autumn term saw us putting 400 newly qualified teachers into paid posts in schools and I'm really pleased that we've been able to extend that this term as well. We've supported schools and other settings to respond to those immediate pressures, but we also need to look at the long-term effects, Dirprwy Lywydd, particularly on learners' well-being and progression, which some Members have spoken about. So, our renew and reform plan focuses on supporting a revitalised, reformed, focused and resilient education system that puts learners' physical and mental health and well-being at the heart of its approach. And that approach is absolutely central to our new curriculum.
Preparation for the curriculum continues, whether it's the work of the national network on design and progression, most recently the new resources on assessment, the significant investment in professional learning—. There's more to be done to make that as accessible as possible for our workforce, absolutely, and we'll work with them on that. And I'm looking forward to the conference I have with heads in a couple of weeks on curriculum preparation.
But we know as well, Dirprwy Lywydd, that many learners, in particular those in exam years, are experiencing—for reasons we would all understand—anxiety, and some feel disengaged from education. The funding of £24 million that I announced before Christmas is there to support learners in exam years to have the extra advice and personalised support that they will need. We've already committed, over the course of this financial year—. Actually, the figure is £230 million-worth of additional funding to deal with COVID, in addition to the funding of equivalent figures the year before that.
We've heard a number of Members today make points about protections in schools. As you heard me say yesterday, our clear advice from Public Health Wales is that we need a couple more weeks to be able to be certain of the pattern. We've been absolutely clear that that is our priority. I've heard more than one Member say today that learners in Wales have lost more school time than in other parts of the UK. I think a fair analysis, for example, of the data in Wales against the data in England, let's say, is that the picture is broadly similar and that all parts of the UK face a challenge of broadly similar proportions. The reality is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the picture can't be analysed in detail. In England, pupil absences are reported in a voluntary survey and they routinely get about 50 per cent, 60 per cent, of their returns. In Wales, we routinely get 100 per cent, so our understanding is much clearer in Wales.
You heard me say yesterday, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, on 10 February, when the next review point comes, we hope to confirm that schools will then be able to start moving to their local frameworks—a national approach that reflects local circumstances. And I'm asking schools in the meantime to work with their local authorities, with their public health advisers, to prepare for that point.
A number of Members made a point about ventilation, including Heledd Fychan in bringing forward the Plaid amendment. I'm pleased that every classroom in Wales should, by now, have a carbon dioxide monitor, which helps staff identify areas that have potentially poor ventilation. We've provided significant funding at the start of this year to support school maintenance to respond to some of those challenges, whether it's new air filters and handler units and so on. The advice from TAC at the start of this week emphasises that ventilation is the most important intervention, and that, alongside that,there is a role for air cleaning devices in specific circumstances. In the majority of cases, simple steps like improving the mechanical systems or installing vents will help circulate the air, but, in those cases where that's not enough, the new advice from TAC supports the use of those additional air filters. But we'll publish guidance over the coming days to support our local authorities to invest in those where they need to.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, on the question of funding, this is a persistent myth that the Conservative Party propagates, and I associate myself with the points that Heledd Fychan made about the broad comparability of investment on a per-pupil basis between Wales and England. The figures that the Tory party have been relying on to make this argument are now about a decade old or more—a decade. Members who've been here for that period of time will remember that, at that point in time, the Conservative Party was positively advocating a 12 per cent cut in the education budget. The figures stem from those days; they're not remotely current. The Education Policy Institute has told us that, in Wales, we're investing more and more progressively in the response to COVID.
I'll conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, by saying that we are, in Wales, extremely fortunate to have a highly professional and dedicated education workforce, committed to the well-being and progression of our young people, and I'm very grateful to everybody who's worked with us, and continues to work with us, to keep Wales learning and to keep Wales safe.

I call on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, I'd like to thank all Members from across the virtual Chamber this afternoon who contributed to this really important debate, and of course the Minister, as well, for your response. I'd like to join you, Minister, in thanking our teachers, school staff and local education authority staff, all those involved through this difficult time, in making sure children were getting educated and still are today.
Those cross-party contributions we've heard today have clearly indicated that all political parties and Members note the sheer impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on the younger generation—that's something that Heledd Fychan mentioned in her contribution right at the start—and the impact this has had on their education through this time. As outlined, though, by a number of my colleagues, children in Wales have lost the most amount of learning than any other nation in the UK, potentially stifling their development. I think Jenny Rathbone was right to highlight some of the challenges that would pose to those who are certainly more vulnerable in our communities, and those who need more support. And this lack of access to learning has had a worrying impact on the progression of many pupils. As a father of three young girls in primary school, I've seen some of this with my own eyes over the last two years or so.
In terms of the points that Members highlighted, a remarkably healthy-looking Tom Giffard was right, I think, to highlight some of the good things, that online learning worked out for many learners, but also to highlight the fact that, actually, there's nothing quite like face-to-face learning and the benefits that having teachers and pupils in the same classroom has. And I think Heledd Fychan picked up some of the mental health impacts, perhaps, that online learning only can have, and that was something that others picked up as well in our debate.
In terms of face masks, a number of Members highlighted the issues or some of the issues that face masks can have in terms of a barrier to communication in the classroom. James Evans highlighted this in particular, especially for children learning to read and write. As we already know, this will have only exacerbated some of the education failings that we do see here in Wales. So, I would support Members in terms of the sooner face masks can come off the better, to allow people to learn in the best way possible.
In terms of the constructive element—. I can see Rhun ap Iorwerth wants to intervene here, Llywydd.

Yes. Are you prepared to take it, Sam?

Sam Rowlands MS: Yes, come on.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. I'm grateful to you for taking an intervention. I think this is a much more reasonable tone, actually, from Sam Rowlands, and I agree entirely with you. All of us want to get rid of face masks in schools, and everywhere else as soon as possible, and I think probably Sam Rowlands will be embarrassed by some of the mantra that has been heard by some of his colleagues, this 'learning to live with COVID'. I fear it's the Conservatives learning to forget about COVID. It's been a terrible, terrible experience, and won't Sam Rowlands agree with me that it's not cavalier politicians who will decide when we move to the endemic stage now, but the virus itself, and we have to be very careful in working with it?

Sam Rowlands MS: I'm certainly not embarrassed by comments that my colleagues have made, and you're absolutely right, we should be seeing restrictions moved away as soon as possible, and, of course, science and information have a key role to play in that decision making.
In terms of the constructive items that I think Members have picked up today that we can, hopefully, continue to agree on, I think Gareth Davies highlighted a really important point around parental choice and the role of parents and the voice of parents being heard throughout times like this. I'm not sure that's always been as strongly listened to as it could have been through this time. And, secondly, another area that has been highlighted and perhaps can be learned from constructively is the agility within the education system to be able to respond in times of crisis. At the start of the pandemic, I think it's fair to say that the agility wasn't there, and perhaps the Minister may want to think about how that could be built into the system in the future, because we're told that situations like this are not alone, and actually we may have to consider it in the future again.
So, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer—I appreciate time is running away—it is disappointing that Welsh Government have submitted a 'delete all and replace with' amendment here today, instead of engaging with our motion and taking on board what I hoped was constructive feedback, looking to make the practical solutions that we've outlined in today's debate. We all acknowledge that the pandemic has been extremely challenging to all sectors. There have been no easy decision to make. However, here in Wales, specific actions of Welsh Government outlined in today's debate have had a detrimental impact on the development of our learners, which can only add to the worrying education statistics here in Wales. So, thank you to all Members and the Minister for constructive contributions, and I urge all Members to support our Conservative motion here today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

Yes, I can see the Minister putting his hand up.

I will therefore defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: The UK Government's Elections Bill

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

Item 8 is next, the Plaid Cymru debate on the UK Government's Elections Bill, and I call on Rhys ab Owen to move the motion.

Motion NDM7894 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the importance of ensuring that elections are fair and accessible for all voters.
2. Condemns the UK Government for introducing the Elections Bill which is set to bring in major changes to reserved elections, including the introduction of compulsory photographic identification to vote.
3. Supports the #HandsOffOurVote campaign that seeks to ensure that no legitimate voter is turned away from the ballot box.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to oppose and raise concerns regarding the measures brought forward by the Elections Bill at every opportunity with the UK Government.

Motion moved.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. From the Chartists to the Suffragettes, people have literally given their lives to ensure that we have the right to vote on these islands, and, across the centuries, the great battle was to gain more rights, and that happened again recently in Wales as we extended the franchise to young people of 16 and 17 years old. Any attempt to limit the right to vote undermines all of our rights, undermines our way of life and undermines the democracy that we enjoy today because of the efforts and sacrifices of others.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Voting is the foundation of our democracy, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's where extraordinary possibilities become reality through a mere cross in a box. It has led to the foundation of the national health service, the creation of the welfare state and the establishment of our national parliament, our Senedd. The ballot box is where dreams and aspirations do come true. It's where decisions about the future of our nations are made by their citizens. It is also the most effective tool to hold us politicians to account.

Rhys ab Owen AS: We need very detailed scrutiny before any limitations on the right to vote are introduced, such as the introduction of ID. You need robust evidence that is properly analysed. Certainly, there's no place for ideology in influencing any decisions. The Conservatives will seek to portray this as a reasonable decision, but, in speaking to a jury in a court of law, I would always tell them to look at the evidence in the round.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Look at the evidence as a whole, at the Tory Government's action on the whole. They want to restrict protest, they want to strip people of citizenship without providing any justification. They want to stop our courts from quashing secondary legislation that is incompatible with human rights. They want to tackle so-called 'rights inflation'—that's too much human rights, to you and me. They want to restrict the right to a judicial review of public body decisions. They want to defund the BBC and, through that, our beloved S4C. And they want to make it harder for people to vote. The Conservatives today would still arrest the Chartists and the Suffragettes for being too noisy in their protest. My grandmother would still go to jail for protesting for S4C and Welsh language rights. They would have stopped my father from travelling on his motorbike from Cardiff to create as much mayhem and noise as possible during the shameful opening ceremony of the Tryweryn dam.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Rhys ab Owen AS: The Conservative Members here can shake their heads as much as they like. You can argue that the aim of Boris Johnson and his crew is to protect democracy, but I very much hope that you have enough sense and integrity to realise how unnecessary the introduction of voter ID is. The cases of voter fraud are so small.

Rhys ab Owen AS: One conviction of voter impersonation in 2017; zero in 2018; none in 2019. They are willing to disenfranchise millions of our own citizens, their own voters, to stop one account of voter fraud. If ever the overused adage of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut is true, it's true in this case. There is no justification at all for this heavy-handed response.
The Conservatives will sit here, they'll hold their noses, their supporters will call the Prif Weinidog a tin-pot dictator for introducing COVID passes for a determined period of time during a public health crisis, but, Llywydd, do they not understand the very definition of irony? Ninety-nine Conservative MPs in Westminster—the largest rebellion against this Government—voted against COVID passports. Of that 99, 85 of them voted to introduce a voting ID for an indeterminate period. I don't agree with his position, but at least David Davis MP is consistent to oppose both COVID passes and voter ID. One English Tory MP cited reservations about COVID passes in fear of becoming a 'papers, please' society. Well, what about a 'photo ID, please, to vote' society?
'I loathe the idea on principle. I never want to be commanded, by any emanation of the British state, to produce evidence of my identity.'
ID cards are
'recipes not just for waste but recipes for tyranny and oppression as well'.
Not my words, Llywydd, but the words of Boris Johnson, the very man that now wants to introduce voter IDs, a man who moves with the wind.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Or, to use the words of Gerallt Lloyd Owen, 'a man who never caught the tide.'

Rhys ab Owen AS: At least the Scottish Conservatives have questioned their leadership in Westminster, but the Welsh Conservatives say nothing. They sit on their hands, no whine, no whimper, and remain totally anonymous and totally irrelevant in the eyes of their masters in Westminster.

Rhys ab Owen AS: This is your opportunity, colleagues, to say, 'Enough is enough.'

Rhys ab Owen AS: Or will you only bark when Boris says, 'Bark'? Forget Dilyn, the No. 10 Downing Street dog, for a moment; it's their leader in the Senedd, that's Johnson's poodle, even though they don't know his name. But at least he had a prize yesterday for being a good boy.

Rhys ab Owen AS: My colleagues Heledd Fychan, Peredur Owen Griffiths and Sioned Williams will discuss the impact of this Bill on the citizens of our nation. I would like to focus on the impact on our Senedd. Although the Bill doesn't directly impact devolved elections, the indirect impact is clear for all to see. First of all, the Bill will mean that ID will be required for police and crime commissioner elections. As we saw last May, different elections can happen on the same day, and it's entirely credible that one could think that voters would leave the polling station without having voted in Senedd and local elections because of a lack of ID—they will see that they need ID, and they will turn away. It makes the situation more complex, it makes the system more complex in a way that's entirely unnecessary.

Rhys ab Owen AS: On top of this, it erodes the independence of the Electoral Commission. Clause 12 sets out the commission needs to follow the strategy and policy statement of the Westminster Government. This sets out priorities on electoral matters and principles that the commission are expected to operate and then have their performance measured against that statement created by the Westminster Government. In fact, the Electoral Commission is funded and formally accountable to all Parliaments on these islands. The Westminster Government should not be able to dictate to the commission what it can and cannot do.
For a party founded on the principles of limited Government, the increasingly encroaching state on public bodies seems to be a fixture of modern Toryism and Johnsonism. I see that the Tory amendment claims that the Electoral Commission is supporting voting ID. That is simply not the case. They are clear that the introduction of a new policy is a matter for Government, not them.
Also, the amendment mentions the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights. Well, let us look at who are members of that office. Twenty eight of the office's participating states are described as not politically free, with some countries having well-known human rights breaches, such as Belarus. Belarus, described as Europe's last dictatorship, Kazakhstan and Russia, these are the people that the Conservative Party in Wales are aligning themselves with.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Experiments with voter ID just show that it leads to fewer people voting. In the Westminster pilot in 2019, of the 1,000 that were rejected because they didn't have ID, 338 of them—a third of them—didn't return. In another pilot, where it was possible to show photographic ID or two other pieces of specific ID without a picture, 2,000 were rejected. This time 750 didn't return. These aren't my figures or the figures of the Electoral Reform Society or any other group; they are the figures of the very Government that wants to introduce voter ID.

Rhys ab Owen AS: At a time when turnout for elections is low, with general elections sitting at around 60 per cent, and with the Senedd struggling to reach 50 per cent, why would we want to limit people and dissuade them from sharing their voices and their opinions with us? Anyone who supports this Bill—and I'm looking at my friends who usually sit opposite me in the Siambr—should never again criticise this Senedd or any other election for that matter for low turnout, if they are supporting, through this, the voter ID that will actively turn people away and discourage voters. Democracies represent the voices of their citizens. A democracy that fails to include all its citizens or stops them from voicing their opinion is not a proper democracy. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Darren Millar to move the amendment tabled in his name. Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Welcomes the UK Government’s Elections Bill and its provisions to strengthen the integrity of elections across the United Kingdom.
Notes that the introduction of voter ID has been backed by the Electoral Commission and that the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights has stated that its absence is a security risk.
Calls on the Welsh Government to work collaboratively with the UK Government to improve the integrity of all elections held in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendment tabled on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives in my name.
I have to say, I was a little bit disappointed by the tone of Rhys ab Owen's speech there, and it feels a little bit like groundhog day today, because, of course, we had basically the same debate just a couple of months ago, tabled by the Welsh Government. But, of course, it shouldn't surprise me any more that Plaid, as the—. He was accusing us of being lapdogs of No. 10, but Plaid are the lapdogs, of course, of the Welsh Labour Party. You're in a co-operation agreement with the Welsh Labour Party and, effectively, in coalition. So, it's a bit rich, frankly, Rhys ab Owen, of you to accuse us of being other people's lapdogs, when, quite frankly, we've seen plenty of evidence in the Siambr today, this virtual Siambr, of the fact that that is precisely what you and your colleagues are in terms of the Labour Party.
In spite of the song and dance that you've made about the provisions of the UK Government's Elections Bill, the reality is that most voters out there are astonished at the fact that you're opposing what are perfectly sensible measures to bring forward safeguards against voter fraud that will strengthen the security of our elections across the whole of the UK. And instead of opposing the sorts of provisions that are in this Elections Bill, including voter ID, which I'll come on to in a moment, why on earth would you want to oppose measures against undue influence? Why on earth would you want to oppose measures against the intimidation of voters? Because they're some of the other provisions that you and the Welsh Government are currently opposing in the Bill. We all know that election fraud is a heinous crime of which every single person in this Chamber and this country has been a victim.

Can I just cut across, Darren Millar? Are you willing to accept an intervention from Rhianon Passmore?

Darren Millar AC: I'll take one in a moment, if I may, Llywydd.

Okay. I'll leave you to tell us when that is.

Darren Millar AC: And the reality is that it is a crime we'll all be victims of again and again if the UK Government and the Welsh Government don't take action to combat it.
You made reference, Rhys ab Owen, to the relatively few cases of voter fraud that have been identified in recent years, but the fact that more haven't been identified doesn't mean that it's not happening, because of course the nature of fraud means that it very often goes unnoticed, undetected and unrecorded. But where it has been discovered, sometimes it's been on an industrial scale. We've seen terrible cases of fraud in Tower Hamlets, Slough, Birmingham and elsewhere, and it has exposed weaknesses in election arrangements that any responsible Government would want to address. That is what the UK Government is seeking to do with its Elections Bill.
This is going to stop the theft of people's votes by requiring voters to present photo ID when they turn up to a polling station. It will address weaknesses in the postal and proxy vote arrangements. And with regard to voter ID, I know that you're up in arms about this provision, and so is the Labour Government, but of course it was a Labour Government that brought in voter ID in Northern Ireland, where it works perfectly well, and we know that, very often, in Labour party meetings, I think it's true to say to my Labour colleagues at this virtual Senedd this afternoon, many times you have to produce your membership card in order to vote.

I've now a second intervention request from another Labour Member, Jenny Rathbone.

Darren Millar AC: Go on, I'll take them both.

Okay, Rhianon Passmore first, and Jenny Rathbone, and then Darren can respond to both.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you for taking the intervention. It's a very simple question, and it goes to the root of some of the points that have been made, Darren Millar. How is it good for democracy if it is harder to register to vote and it is therefore harder to vote?

Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I note you haven't told us how many there are in Wales. I've never come across it in Wales at all. So, how would you respond to my constituent who said that her parents won't be able to vote because they don't have a passport and they don't drive?

Darren Millar AC: So, voter ID—I'll respond to both of them, because it's effectively the same point—voter ID is not a threat. Ninety-eight per cent of the electorate already have suitable photographic identification that they would be able to use in order to vote, and those who don't currently have that photographic ID will be able to get a free voter ID card that will be available from their local authority. That is the case in Northern Ireland, where this system works perfectly well and doesn't have any problems, and that will be the case also here in Wales and elsewhere in the UK. And in fact, you don't just have to take my word for it, the Electoral Commission have very clearly said, and I quote, that
'Since the introduction of photo ID in Northern Ireland there have been no reported cases of impersonation. Voters' confidence that elections are well-run in Northern Ireland is consistently higher than in Great Britain'.
So, this is not about ideology, this is about sensible measures. The reality is that photo ID is required in most western democracies. Almost everywhere in Europe, people are required to produce photo ID in order to vote. Every single country in Europe, with the exception of Denmark, where you still must provide it if you are requested to do so. So, the UK at the moment is a complete outlier in respect of this.
You mentioned the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights and I was disappointed about your disparaging remarks about that particular office and organisation. It has already identified that the absence of voter ID poses a security risk to our elections. Now, I want to see that security risk addressed, and so should everysingle Member of this Senedd and anybody else who is elected by the people of Wales.
Plaid and Labour often argue that they've opposed voter ID because they claim that minorities would be disadvantaged because they're less likely to hold identification. I've heard that rehearsed not by you, Rhys ab Owen, today, but I've heard it rehearsed elsewhere. There's no evidence for this assertion. In fact, data shows that 99 per cent of people from ethnic minorities have a form of photo ID that would enable them to vote, compared to 98 per cent of people who identify as white. So, it is a bit disappointing that some people still make that point.
You accused us of hypocrisy earlier on, but it's pretty astonishing that both Labour and Plaid persist in their opposition to voter ID when in recent months you've been requiring people to verify their identity in order to access a COVID pass to watch a film at their local cinema. If you're happy to impose ID requirements to watch the latest Spider-Man movie, why do you have a problem with people being required to show their ID in order to vote? People have to show a bus pass with their identification on in order to jump on a passenger bus; why should people not be required to produce some identification in order to partake in the important democratic mandate that we ask them to periodically here in Wales in the elections?
And a quick word, finally, on the Hands Off Our Vote campaign. That is exactly what the Government is trying to do. The UK Government is trying to keep people's hands off votes that don't belong to them. It's trying to protect people's votes from people who want to steal them. And to suggest that the UK Government is some sort of nefarious actor is an appalling misrepresentation of the facts. So, instead of balking about the UK Government Elections Bill, what the Labour-Plaid coalition should be doing instead is to make it a priority to adopt the provisions in this particular Bill and make sure that they apply to all elections that take place in Wales, including those for which the Senedd is responsible, because we need to make sure that voters here can have confidence that when they cast their ballots, they do make a difference and that those elections are free, fair and protected. So, I urge Members to reject the motion and to support the amendment that we've tabled. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm very much looking forward to disappointing Darren Millar this evening with my contribution. Let's counter some of his statistics at the start, as I, too, can quote the Electoral Commission. As you know, the UK has no national ID card, compared to other countries, and also 3.5 million registered voters do not possess any form of photo ID, and 11 million do not have a driving licence or passport. So, you may quote these statistics, but there are millions of people who will be disenfranchised by this.

Heledd Fychan AS: Ever since plans to introduce compulsory voter ID were introduced, Plaid Cymru has opposed them, and we will continue to oppose them. In 2019, we signed the joint letter from opposition parties urging the UK Government to scrap the policy, and, as we've already heard, we opposed the LCM, sending a strong message from this Senedd to the Westminster Government that we do not support these proposals here in Wales.
The introduction of compulsory voter ID will disenfranchise particularly younger and black, Asian and minority ethnic voters, who are less likely to have the documents required to vote. The increasing divergence between UK and Welsh devolved elections is also worrying, given that voting rights for Welsh elections have been extended to all those over 16 years of age, including foreign nationals resident in Wales. Whilst Welsh elections are becoming more inclusive and democratic, the same cannot be said of Westminster, which is doing exactly the opposite.
The UK Government's own figures show that 2 million people, including almost 100,000 people here in Wales, could be deprived of the ability to vote as a result of these plans. The UK Government has received multiple warnings from campaigning groups about the problems of the policy and that it is a huge overreaction to the issue of voter fraud, which happens very rarely. Where are the facts in that regard? Jenny Rathbone was quite right to raise that in the Welsh context. Indeed, analysis by the Electoral Reform Society in 2019 found that, of the 266 allegations investigatedby police in the 2018 local elections, only eight involved claims of voter impersonation, which voter ID is intended to reduce. Of the eight cases, no action was taken in seven, and one was resolved locally. In contrast, 140 of the allegations were about campaigning offences. In 2020, the police investigated 15 cases of voter fraud, and only three remain under investigation.
A truly democratic nation empowers its citizens to engage in democratic processes. In the Senedd election in May, we know that at least 35,000 16 and 17-year-olds hadn't taken the chance to vote for the first time. Fifty-four per cent of this age bracket failed to register. Indeed, the rate of registration for the general population of Wales is 76.4 per cent; we're all duty bound to improve this. According to a report by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities published in November of last year, 25 per cent of black Britons are not registered to vote. Consider this alongside the Government's own data that 48 per cent of black people do not hold a driver's licence.
We know that participating in democracy is strongly linked to improved outcomes, and it should therefore be obvious to all that voting reform should focus on inclusion, rather than erecting barriers to voting. You can't put a price on democracy, but these changes would suggest that there is a cost to being a democratic nation, namely £34 if you are applying online, or £43 through the post, which is the cost for a first-time driver's licence, or £75.50 online or £85 through the post for a passport. In Wales, people are facing high energy and fuel prices, cuts to universal credit, higher taxes and rising inflation. Do we really believe that everyone can afford a driver's licence or a passport, particularly if they don't drive or have any plans to go abroad? [Interruption.] Yes, Darren, I'm happy to take—

Heledd, will you take an intervention from Darren Millar?

Heledd Fychan AS: Yes, fine.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch. Thank you, Heledd, for taking the intervention. The photo ID cards that people will be able to access if they don't have a passport or driver licence will be free. So, I'm not sure why you're asserting that there's going to be a financial burden for individuals who may not have photographic ID already. They're provided free of charge in Northern Ireland, and the Bill specifically makes sure that there's no charge for the individual that wants to receive one.

Heledd Fychan AS: But there's no clarity in terms of when this will be available, or how. It adds another barrier to participation. There's also a cost for local authorities to deliver this. There is also the point that when the Government tested a voter ID pilot in 2018, more than 1,000 voters were turned away for not having the correct form of ID. And, on average, 338 voters did not return to vote, so 32.6 per cent of those turned away. So, it's not just a matter of having that ID—it's about putting those barriers in place.

Heledd Fychan AS: Although UK Ministers have promised a free ID, as I've just mentioned, the details on this aren't in place, and doesn't it place another barrier in the way of voters?
The UK Government should be tackling the real issues in our politics, and make it easier for everyone to vote and to participate in our democracy. We are not representative as a Senedd, and placing further barriers will stop more people becoming part of this democratic process. Our electoral system is already unequal. The UK Government's plans would exacerbate this. We must do everything possible to stop this from happening here in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: As I said before in this Chamber, our democracy is built on a foundation of fair, open and accessible elections. Our Senedd function is to empower the people of Wales, and, in turn, we as their elected representatives are empowered by the trust they place in us at the ballot box. I know many Members from across this Chamber will have joined me in taking opportunities to meet school pupils in our constituencies, discussing with them the importance of voting and having their voice heard at election time. We do this because encouraging participation in our democracy is central to our role as elected representatives. A healthy democracy is one with which the electorate feel able to engage, meaning one that is as transparent as possible whilst being free from unnecessary barriers to participation. Whilst we have seen in recent weeks that transparency is not high on the Tory Government's list of priorities, the Elections Bill is proof that neither is encouraging participation in our democratic processes.
The introduction of compulsory photo ID to vote has no evidential basis. It serves to solve a problem that simply does not exist on anything like the scale necessary to influence an election, at an extraordinary price. What we do know, however, is that it will make voting more inaccessible, particularly for those from disadvantaged communities. It's a fact that those most unlikely to possess a form of photographic ID are from poorer households. Putting in place artificial barriers to participation that disproportionately affect certain communities must never be seen as acceptable. It concerns me deeply to hear those from the Conservative benches defending such a move, and I am very grateful that we have a Welsh Labour Government, and in particular a Counsel General who is dedicated to protecting the democratic rights of all people in Wales. I trust he will continue to raise these concerns with the UK Government at every opportunity. I have no doubt that the Elections Bill presents a threat to participation levels for reserved elections in my own region of North Wales. Members here in the Senedd and in Westminster, from all political colours, should focus their energies on inspiring all potential voters to engage in our democracy, rather than creating ways to discourage them. Diolch yn fawr.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I imagine most of us involved in this debate have spent a fair amount of time trudging the streets in our patch, knocking doors, and talking politics to strangers. It's an aspect of being a member of a political party that I genuinely enjoy. Occasionally, it can make you feel a bit despondent when you come across somebody who is not engaged politically. They are completely switched off from voting because they cannot see how politics can affect their lives. At a time when we should be doing all we can to engage with people and get them participating in the democratic process, there arrives something that could make the job a lot harder by depriving hundreds of thousands of people a vote.
The supposed rationale behind the Bill, the need to curb voter fraud, is at best extremely ill-advised and unwarranted. At worst, it is a blatant attempt to deny a vote to people who perhaps are more likely to vote against the Tories and their policies. Why do I say this Bill is unwarranted? In the last eight years, there have been a grand total of three prosecutions for voter fraud across the whole of the UK. I'll repeat that again: three prosecutions in eight years. Boris Johnson has had more lockdown-busting parties during the pandemic than that. Perhaps we should instead be bringing forward a Bill that curtails the alleged illegal activities of this rogue Prime Minister.
Anyway, as Plaid Cymru spokesperson for older people, I am particularly concerned about the impact this Bill will have on older people. Half of those affected will be over 50, with more than one in 25 people over 50 having not having acceptable forms of ID. The trend for taking services online also applies to identity cards. Age UK found that, in 2016, more than a quarter of people aged 65 to 74 did not regularly use the internet. This rises to almost two thirds of people aged over 75. Digital exclusion amongst older people is a real issue, and now it could see them being deprived of the vote. I hope those in favour of this Bill within this Senedd will reflect carefully on that point before they cast their vote this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Rhys, for bringing this important debate forward.

Jane Dodds AS: Let's take a step back and think about what this Bill could have been about. It could have been about strengthening our democracy by getting behind efforts to build a better politics with a fairer electoral system. It could have sought to expand the franchise, empower voters and communities, increase voter turnout, and rebuild trust in our electoral system. Instead, Conservative Ministers have voted to make it harder for people to vote, to actively disenfranchise people and to make our electoral system less representative.
I am grateful for the work of campaigners like Maddy Dhesi, leading the Hands Off Our Vote campaign. It's a campaign led by young people to keep elections fair and accessible for all voters. And they make the point very clearly: at a time when voter turnout continues to decline and public apathy continues to rise, measures that make it harder for people to participate undermine our democracy and ultimately our society. Voter ID proposals are not only discriminatory but, as we have heard, a blatant undermining of our democratic rights, and these plans are completely disproportionate.
So, I'm going to finish my brief speech with a political point, disappointing Darren Millar again. This is because this is a debate about values, whether it's this Bill, thinly veiled threats to our national broadcaster or a draconian clampdown on protests, Boris Johnson and his Government are hellbent on ducking and diving from accountability at every turn; hardly surprising, given their recent exploits. So, it comes as no surprise that there is a desire from the Conservatives to entrench themselves within a system that breeds the entitlement and self-serving behaviour that we have seen over the past few weeks. This is a shameful and disproportionate measure to undermine democracy by the Conservatives. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sioned Williams MS: In their contributions to this debate, my fellow Plaid Cymru Members have highlighted concerns that are shared by many organisations, charities and other institutions. The people at most risk of losing their democratic voice as a result of this Bill are those from groups who are already disenfranchised. Yesterday, I spoke in relation to Holocaust Memorial Day about how guarded we must be as politicians and as citizens to safeguard civil rights, particularly in terms of ensuring that legislation doesn't have any sort of disproportionate impact on minorities, an impact that would disadvantage them, which would exclude them from society and silence them, and international evidence proves that steps such as insisting on particular photo ID in order to cast a vote does exactly that. And at a time—thanks to the disgraceful behaviour of the Boris Johnson Government and the numerous scandals—when people's trust in politics is plummeting, we need to empower the voice of electors, not close them out of the democratic system and create more suspicion.
I would like to focus on how the Bill disproportionately impacts on certain groups. LGBTQ+ people are three times more likely than the general population of not having photo ID, with 38 per cent of trans people and 35 per cent of non-binary people saying that they've had problems in getting their ID accepted.

Sioned Williams MS: Research by Stonewall has found that among those trans and non-binary people who have had their ID questioned or rejected in the past, 34 per cent cited that the problem was a difference in appearance between photos and appearance. Thirty-two per cent said their ID didn't match their given name. Twenty per cent said that the gender marker didn't match their appearance. Sixteen per cent noted hostility and transphobia. More than half of trans and non-binary voters said they were less likely to vote if they had to present ID.

Sioned Williams MS: We cannot on the one hand say that we support the rights of groups such as trans and non-binary people in policy areas such as health and education, but then not allowing them to express their democratic views.
This Bill will also have a disproportionate impact on young people, as we've already heard. All of our efforts here to ensure that young people engage with the democratic process through expanding the franchise to those of 16 and 17 years old by establishing our own Youth Parliament, through the excellent work that the Senedd does in engaging with schools and colleges is all proof of the fact that we understand that we need to nurture and increase the number of young people that are participating in our electoral process, and we heard the statistics from Heledd Fychan that prove this. The ID requirements will do exactly the opposite. One example of how it will do this is that travel cards for those over 60 years of age will be accepted as a legal form of photo IDthat can be used to vote, but identity cards for students or travel cards for young people will not be accepted, and young people are far more likely to be without a passport or a driver's licence than older people. And the fact that many young adults are more likely to change address often makes it far more difficult for them to keep their ID documents up to date and therefore acceptable for use in voting.

Sioned Williams MS: Blind and partially sighted people experience a unique set of challenges when voting. The practical act of voting, making a cross in a specific location on a piece of paper, is fundamentally a visual exercise. It requires the ability to locate the boxes, read the names of the candidates and make a mark on the paper. Current provisions provided in every polling station to allow blind and partially sighted people to vote are a large-print ballot paper that can be used for reference and a tactile voting device. Although in practice, because of this inability to read the names of candidates on the ballot, the majority of the 350,000 blind and partially sighted people in the UK currently find it impossible to vote without having to share their vote with a companion or presiding officer in the polling station, often finding they have to name the candidate they want to vote for out loud. As a result, despite 2022 marking 150 years since the Ballot Act 1872 guaranteed the right to vote in secret, the vast majority of blind and partially sighted people are unable to exercise this right. But instead of proactively developing a new way to vote independently, this Elections Bill weakens the guarantees for blind and partially sighted people already existing in legislation, allowing for individual returning officers, instead of the Government, to make the decision as to what to provide, creating a postcode lottery of provision.
Nobody's right to vote should be undermined. Everyone who is eligible to vote deserves not only to do so, but they also should be able to expect their Governments encourage them to do so, enable them to do so and take away any barriers that could stop them doing so. The Bill is nothing more than a masked act of aggressive voter suppression; a well-recognised conservatory reactionary tactic to silence debate, to disenfranchise those who might vote for different kinds of representations and policies and the shore-up power of the privileged. We must do everything we can in Wales to stop its implementation. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: I think I'm a bit like my colleague Darren Millar in experiencing symptoms of déjà vu, because we had this exact debate just a few weeks before the Christmas recess. I know Plaid have a co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government, but I didn't know it meant regurgitating the Government's infrequent debates. Clearly, Plaid and their puppet masters are fresh out of ideas. Our public services are on their knees, and rather than debate ways to solve the crisis, Plaid would, once again, rather debate constitutional or electoral arguments. It seems that voter ID is their new straw man, yet another attempt to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. Spreading fear that people won't be able to vote, spreading uncertainty about the veracity of future elections, spreading doubt about the need for such changes. These are all spurious arguments, and voter ID is there to prevent fraudulent voters, not legitimate ones. This—

Will you take an intervention from Heledd Fychan, Gareth Davies?

Gareth Davies AS: I won't at the moment. I've only just started, so I will make progress.

Okay. Your prerogative. Carry on.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you. These proposals didn't come from Government. It was the Electoral Commission who suggested the need for voter ID, and it's not a Tory plot to deny left-leaning voters from taking part in elections. There is no need for these Machiavellian machinations, because the Labour Party are very good at turning off voters all by themselves. You just need to look at the fall of the red wall in 2019. But in all seriousness, these changes to our voting systems are not only warranted, they are vital if we are to maintain faith in the system. Plaid and Labour believe we don't need change. They claim that there's never been any incidents of voter fraud in Wales, therefore there is no need for voter ID in Welsh elections. But we've never suffered a terrorist attack on the Senedd estate, so why do we bother having security and armed police? And my house has never been burgled, touch wood, so why do I bother locking my doors or having a burglar alarm?

You've generated more requests—in fact, three—for interventions.

Gareth Davies AS: I can imagine I have. [Laughter.]

I'll tell you who they are and you can decide whether you wish to accept them: Rhianon Passmore, Jack Sargeant, Jane Dodds and Heledd Fychan. You're proving very popular, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: I think it's a bit excessive, so I will carry on. Time's marching on.

Okay, your choice to carry on. You have enough time and I extend the time for interventions, but carry on.

Gareth Davies AS: Okay, good to know. Thank you.
We'd put measures in place to deter such attacks and to prevent such attacks. Our voting system here in Wales may not have experienced widespread voting fraud, but we use the exact same system that they do on the other side of Offa's Dyke. And there have been numerous examples of voter fraud in England; I think it's the Tower Hamlets scandal in 2014 that springs to mind. And it was the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights within the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, an organisation that observes elections across the world, who raised concerns about the vulnerabilities to fraud that they've seen in the UK's voting systems. So, yes, we do need the change, and thankfully, the UK Government is implementing change for Westminster elections; they have secured their elections, but we're leaving the door wide open. Sadly, Labour-applied hostility will mean that our elections in Wales remain vulnerable to widespread fraud. And I would urge Members, if they care at all about the security and veracity of future Welsh elections, to support our amendment tonight. Thank you.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to contribute to the debate—Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The right to vote and participation in voting are fundamental to our democracy, and the Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that elections in Wales are fair, secure and accessible. We believe in expanding the opportunities for people to take part in our democratic processes, and we will resist any and all attempts to undermine elections and to make it harder for people to cast their votes. So, that is why I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today, and I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this topic forward.
Llywydd, I have previously expressed my grave concerns about provisions in the UK Government's Elections Bill, which are a shameless attempt at voter suppression. Through the requirement for voter ID, the Conservative Party is brazenly seeking to limit participation in elections and to change the law for partisan advantage. There is an irony in the approach adopted by the Welsh Conservatives in this debate, isn't there? On the one hand, they argue against COVID passes because they think it might gain them some popularity, but if that doesn't work, they support voting passes to limit their unpopularity at the ballot box by making it more difficult for people to actually vote. There's absolutely no evidential base or rationale for its introduction other than voter suppression.
Data from the Electoral Commission demonstrates that, in 2019, as has been said, only one individual was convicted for using someone else's vote at a polling station. And yet, the UK Government is ploughing on regardless and has consistently ignored the legitimate concerns raised by a multitude of civic organisations. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has previously warned that voter ID requirements will have a disproportionate impact on older people, people with disabilities and those from ethnic minority communities—

Can I just cut across the Counsel General? There is a request for an intervention from Darren Millar.

Mick Antoniw AC: Yes, I'll take an intervention.

Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention, Counsel General. Can you tell us—? Many people have accused the Labour Party of trying to game the electoral system in Wales to your advantage on the basis of some of the pilots that you are hoping to get under way at the local elections next year, most of which seem to target the demographics of individuals who you think might be more likely to vote for the Labour Party. Isn't that the case?

Mick Antoniw AC: No, it is completely untrue, and that is definitely not the case; it is about other measures taken to do what I've said all along, and that is that this Welsh Government is committed to encouraging anyone and everyone to be able to vote and for their vote to be counted.
Now, I said earlier that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had warned of the impact of voter ID requirements, and, in fact, the former Conservative Attorney General, Dominic Grieve, has said that these new rules threaten to create a two-tier electorate and discourage participation by the least advantaged. And the Conservative chair of the UK Parliament's Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, William Wragg—he's been in the news recently—summarised his committee's findings, saying,
'We feel that the Elections Bill proposals lack a sufficient evidence base.'
The Welsh Conservative amendment is also an attempt at political sleight of hand, because the OSCE has not endorsed or even commented on the Government's current proposals that are the subject of today's debate. And the Electoral Commission said in its 2018 evaluation of voter ID pilots that there was
'not yet enough evidence to fully address concerns and answer questions about the impact of identification requirements on voters.'
Llywydd, whilst there are some discrete elements of the Bill that we may wish to pursue in our own electoral reform legislation, we have been clear that we will not be introducing voter ID measures in Wales for devolved elections. But we are concerned about the broader implications of its use for reserved elections in Wales and the particular voter confusion that may be caused as a result of the UK Government's proposed legislation. It would be particularly challenging if devolved and non-devolved elections were also to take place on the same day. It's a situation that we therefore wish to avoid in the future, and these are points that I have made to the UK Government Ministers, and I will continue to do so.
There is not even time to consider in full the many other pernicious aspects of this Bill. The attack on free and fair campaigning at elections, as well as the threat it deliberately poses to our democracy by allowing foreign political donations to flood our system. That is just as much part and parcel of what this Elections Bill is actually about.
The Welsh Government's approach is in stark contrast to the UK Government's. We want to make elections as open and accessible as possible, and we want to find new ways to engage with voters, to make sure they have every opportunity to participate in the democratic process. And that is why we supported votes at 16 and for qualifying foreign citizens—people who contribute to our communities and our nation and who deserve to have their voices heard in our democracy.
To support the extension of the franchise, the Welsh Government is working with local authorities, education and third sector partners to deliver a comprehensive campaign of engagement and awareness raising ahead of the local government elections in May. Members will be aware that Wales's first set of electoral pilots will be taking place as part of the elections this May, ahead of a potential national roll-out in the 2026 Senedd elections. These will look at increasing the opportunities for people to vote, reflecting people's busy lives. We have announced details of four advanced voting pilots being taken forward—in Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Caerphilly and Torfaen. We have designed the pilots to provide evidence for the different types of advanced voting, whether at an existing polling station or a new central one, and opening these on different days.
Each pilot will be different, helping us to see what works best in Wales, and I'm particularly excited about the voting opportunities at Ebbw Vale Learning Zone and Cynffig Comprehensive School. For the first time in any part of the UK, students at education establishments will be able to vote at that establishment. The pilots provide new flexibilities for the electorate in Wales, and we will encourage people to make use of them, especially those who might not have originally intended to vote. Subject to consultation, the Welsh Government also hopes to work with partners on an amended version of the postal voting statement to trial at the 2022 elections.
The findings from the pilots will inform our work on considering future electoral reform, fit for purpose for the twenty-first century, ensuring that devolved elections in Wales are as inclusive as possible. We will be considering our own proposals for how to achieve this, and I look forward to working with colleagues in the Senedd on this in due course. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

I call on Rhys ab Owen to reply to the debate.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I think Darren Millar said four times he was disappointed with my contribution. It reminded me of being a four-year-old again, back in the headmistress's office. When it comes to constitutional matters, if I'm disappointing Darren Millar, I think I'm probably doing something right. I certainly wasn't disappointed with your contribution, Darren Millar; I didn't expect anything else from you. In a nutshell, your position is, 'COVID passes for a short period of time to protect people's lives are bad; permanent voting ID to tackle non-existent issues is good.' You mentioned the UK being an outlier compared to Europe. I thought, Darren Millar, you supported this idea of British exceptionalism. We saw Andrew R.T. perpetuating this myth of Britain alone earlier this week. It fits right into your Brexit narrative, doesn't it, Darren Millar?
In your intervention to Heledd Fychan, you said voting ID will be free. Well, somebody has to pay for voting ID, Darren. The pilots themselves cost £3 million, or are you aware of a magic money tree somewhere to pay for voting ID? The amendment in your name, Darren, is incorrect—the Electoral Commission does not support voting ID. Why would anyone vote for your amendment when it's simply incorrect?
Gareth Davies, you mentioned déjà vu, well, we hear you make the same argument week in, week out in the Senedd when it comes to any discussion about the constitution. I didn't hear you say anything about the largest constitutional upheaval in modern days: Brexit. You always go on about public services being on their knees, but Cabinet Office papers say the implementation costs of voting ID will cost between £4.3 million and £20.4 million per election. Is that good value for money when public services are on their knees, Gareth Davies?

Rhys ab Owen AS: Heledd, Peredur and Sioned have clearly set out the facts—the official facts, facts from the Westminster Government's, and clear statistics showing that people will lose their right to vote. I second the comment made by Jane Dodds in praising the work of Maddy and the young group who are battling this Bill and battling for their right to vote.

Rhys ab Owen AS: When people with disabilities are disenfranchised, when ethnic minority voters are disenfranchised, when working class voters are disenfranchised, we need to be worried. That's why this Senedd and every Member should oppose this Bill and oppose any attempt to disenfranchise our citizens. This Senedd should not be a junior partner in the hollowing out of the democratic and human rights of our citizens. It undermines all democratic government, and it undermines us as a people.
Let us finish our argument, our debate today with another Boris Johnson quote:
'I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.'
Well, Llywydd, Boris is clearly against ID, so I'm sure Darren Millar and his colleagues will join us in supporting the Plaid Cymru motion this evening. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see that there is an objection, and we will therefore defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and I will suspend the meeting in order to make technical preparations for the vote. Thank you.

Plenary was suspended at 18:08.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:10, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote is on the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on public transport in rural areas. The first vote is on the motion, tabled in the name of James Evans and other Members. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, 13 abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—Public transport in rural areas: For: 16, Against: 24, Abstain: 13
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We will, therefore, vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Alun Davies and other Members. Open the vote. In favour 26, 13 abstentions and 14 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Item 6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—Amendment 1: For: 26, Against: 14, Abstain: 13
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Therefore, we will now vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7880as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that 101 million bus journeys were undertaken in Wales in 2018-19, compared to 129 million in 2004-05.
2. Further notes that 23 per cent of people in Wales do not have access to a car or van.
3. Recognises that public transport is essential in rural Wales to prevent isolation and loneliness.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) provide sustainable long-term funding for local authorities to enhance rural bus services;
b) ensure rural councils receive a fair share of future investment for public transport and active travel schemes;
c) guarantee the National Bus Strategy for Wales considers the unique challenges of public transport in rural Wales.
d) prioritise investing in zero-emissions public transport vehicles in rural areas.
e) Recognises the damage done by the privatisation of bus services in the 1980s and calls upon the Welsh Government to bring forward legislation to re-regulate bus services as a matter of urgency in this Senedd.

Open the vote. In favour 28, 13 abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 6. Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv)—Motion as amended: For: 28, Against: 12, Abstain: 13
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the impact of COVID on education. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 39 against. The motion is, therefore, not agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives' debate—The impact of COVID on education, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 39, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We now move to a vote on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 25 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives' debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 28, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendments 2 and 3 deselected.

Amendments 2 and 3 are, therefore, deselected. So, I call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7895as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Regrets the adverse impact of COVID-19 on children and young people’s learning and well-being.
2. Believes that the Welsh Government must continue to take appropriate measures to ensure face to face teaching is prioritised and that decisions to reduce COVID protections in schools must be taken in accordance with the data.
3. Believes that prioritising the wellbeing of pupils and staff is essential as we respond to the pandemic.
4. Notes the Education Policy Institute’s findings that Wales is spending the largest amount per pupil on education recovery in the UK.
5. Welcomes that the Welsh Government recently announced:
a) £50 million additional capital funding to enable schools to undertake repair and improvement work, with a focus on health and safety measures, such as improving ventilation;
b) £45 million additional revenue funding to support schools as they continue to deal with the ongoing impacts of the pandemic and to prepare for the requirements of the new curriculum.

Open the vote. In favour 28, 11 abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate. Motion as amended: For: 28, Against: 14, Abstain: 11
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next votes will be on the Plaid Cymru debate on the UK Government's elections Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 14 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Plaid Cymru debate - The UK government's Elections Bill, tabled in the name of Sian Gwenllian: For: 39, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time for today.

10. Short Debate: The benefits of the restoration of the Montgomery canal: Exploring the progress and advantages of the ongoing restoration being pursued by a group of passionate local individuals, volunteers and organisations

We will move now to the short debate, and today's short debate is in the name of Russell George, and I therefore call on Russell George to introduce his short debate.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased also to give a minute of my time to James Evans and Jane Dodds also. I should also declare an interest, as I'm also a member of the Montgomery Waterway Restoration Trust.
The Montgomery canal was once a 35-mile stretch of waterway, weaving from the English border into the heart of mid Wales at Newtown. Volunteers and a range of community groups have and are now working very hard to restore the canal to its status as a corridor through Montgomeryshire communities for visitors, walkers, ecology and trade from tourism. These organisations include the Montgomery canal partnership, the Canal & River Trust, the Friends of the Montgomery Canal, Montgomery Waterway Restoration Trust, Shropshire Union Canal Society and Mid Wales Tourism.
I want to explore, briefly, the canal's history, before moving on to talk about some of the canal's benefits to mid Wales. The Montgomery canal in its heyday served communities such as Llanymynech, Welshpool, Garthmyl and Newtown, and the canal was built in stages, from the mid 1790s through to 1819, for transporting materials from local businesses, including agriculture. Through the 1920s and 1930s the canal saw dwindling rates of freight, and was forced to close to boats in 1936.
Local people have been passionate about the canal and its preservation for decades. In 1960, the community fought proposals for the use of its route for a bypass—not the Newtown bypass, I should add—and have worked very hard ever since to restore the canal to operational use. Volunteers were instrumental in restoring a 12-mile section of the canal that runs through Welshpool, and there's a picture of just that behind me, if you look closely. And this was reopened by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales at that point. Volunteers have been, of course, vital to conserving the locks and substantial numbers of listed structures along the canal's route.
Then, late last year, in 2021, a bid by Powys County Council to the UK Government's levelling-up fund secured funding for the restoration of a 4.4-mile stretch of the canal near Llanymynech, and this funding will create two restored sections separated only by half a mile where two road bridges need to be replaced. So, that was the stumbling block at the end of last year. But I'm pleased to say that just this month the Welsh and UK Governments, working together, have signed the mid Wales growth deal, and this deal should further help the canal's restoration, and is likely to fund the rebuilding of the two road bridges needed to bring the two restored sections together. This will then bring the opening of the canal section close to the English border, from just where a 2-mile stretch needs to be restored to connect it to the national network. This land required is in the ownership, of course, of the Canal & River Trust.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Russell George AC: Sometimes, the benefits of the canal’s restoration can be difficult to appreciate, because the financial and well-being impacts are spread across various local individuals and businesses. There are already, of course, many benefits to the existing stretch of the canal’s restoration around Welshpool. The Heulwen Trust does amazing work offering canal trips to those who might not otherwise be able to access them, on the UK's first adapted boat for vulnerable people. These trips are offered free of charge thanks to local fundraising and help people in more difficult circumstances to celebrate birthdays and enjoy time with loved ones, and they can of course access and enjoy the benefits that many of us enjoy on the waterways. I was very pleased to join them myself for a journey on the boat the Heulwen II—again, there's a picture you can perhaps just about see behind me on my wall.
Local people will benefit in a number of ways from the canal’s restoration. There’ll be increased employment opportunities from the new and expanded businesses to the area, and I’m confident that many private enterprise and investment opportunities will be unlocked by the restoration. The restoration represents a huge regeneration opportunity and I'm very keen that Powys County Council comes to the table with a master plan on the back of the public sector investment.
In the wake of the pandemic, of course, exercise, as we know, is even more important to us than ever before. Those who have canals in other constituencies will know just how popular they can be for local people when it comes to walking and taking out dogs or undertaking other exercise. I was very pleased some years ago to visit the canals in Scotland, along with a number of other Senedd Members as well, to understand the benefits there, and I was quickly persuaded, as I know all Members were on that trip, that waterways encourage people to exercise more and improve well-being, as a number of reports demonstrate. The canal locally already hosts the Montgomery canal triathlon, which brings 200 entrants from across the UK and 90 volunteers together. The canal is also, of course, part of our local history and culture. Preserving it, with its fantastic range of listed structures, will serve and save an important part of our shared past for future generations to come.
So, what will the future bring? Over 10 years post restoration, the additional visitor income generated by the canal is estimated to be over £23 million, according to the feasibility studies by the Montgomery canal partnership. Of course, this will benefit shops, cafes and attractions and, by restoring the canal and boosting those businesses, more facilities for local people and tourists in our towns and villages can, of course, be preserved. The canal will also give mid Wales a brand to promote itself to potential visitors. Of course, Montgomeryshire has brilliant visitor attractions, such as Powis castle and Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway, which the canal will complement as well.
Conservation and sympathetic, sustainable reopening of the canal are also at the heart of the ethos of all those involved in the delivery of this exciting project, and I'm very pleased thatthe Montgomeryshire Wildlife Trust, of which I’m also a member, has actively contributed to this project, and will continue to do so.
Ambition for the area for progressing the project to the complete restoration of the canal is extremely high. The momentum that we now see will get a substantial section of the canal finished. We should be looking then, of course, to press on with plans for the Newtown section, so that, when construction is finished on the current stages, energy, manpower and funding will continue with the restoration. Newtown Town Council have been enthusiastic supporters of the project and I know are very keen to support some of the funding of works required for this phase.
I’m particularly pleased as well to see that the restoration of the canal has seen such widespread support from across the political spectrum. I know that Jane Dodds and my colleague, James Evans, will be speaking in support of the canal restoration today as well. But, from my own party, my own MP, Craig Williams, has been actively campaigning for the canal and has made it one of his priorities since being re-elected. Back in 2020, the First Minister spoke very favourably about the project when I asked him about the efforts to promote the fantastic heritage of mid Wales, and I know the previous economy Minister, Ken Skates, was very positive and supportive of the scheme, and he certainly has expressed his wider view that the canals are vital for the tourism industry in Wales. I agree, of course, wholeheartedly, and I hope that the continuation of this project will see mid Wales enjoy the same benefits as other areas of Wales with active, joined-up canals. I was also delighted when Lord Elis-Thomas joined me on a trip on the Welshpool section of the canal, back in October 2018. You'll have to have very good eyesight to see the small picture behind me of me and Dafydd on the canal back in 2018. And Dafydd, as the tourism Minister then, was particularly keen to see the restoration of the canal.
So, much has already been achieved in the canal's restoration, and this has been significantly boosted recently by a number of significant announcements of funding. I'm sure the Minister will want to encourage all departments across the Welsh Government to support the organisations restoring the canal in seeking further funding opportunities for this project, which links our communities together. And we should celebrate the canal's further potential for boosting our local well-being, economy and heritage, and thank those very many volunteers who, over many decades, have already done so much for our community. Diolch yn fawr.

James Evans MS: I will only be taking a minute of time, and a lot of this is to praise the good work that my colleague Russell George has done. I know from a previous life, when I was cabinet member for economy on Powys County Council, just how much lobbying Russell, Craig Williams MP and the previous MP who was in this place once upon a time, Glyn Davies, did to try and get the moneys to restore the Montgomery canal, and I just want to pay tribute to you, Russell. Without your perseverance, I don't think this fantastic project would have come off, because, in my own constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire, we have the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, and the benefit that provides to the wider economy here in Breconshire and wider into Peter Fox's constituency of Monmouthshire. The amount of people who come into our patches to use the canal is unbelievable, and I know, when the restoration is done in Montgomeryshire of your canal, just how much that is going to benefit your economy and the wider economy of mid Wales. And it's pleasing that all Governments have worked together, from UK Government to the Welsh Government, to make sure that we have a commitment of investment into mid Wales to boost the economy. So, thank you very much, Russell, for all your perseverance on this matter. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Russell, once again, for tabling this debate and for allowing me to say a very few words. Thank you, also, for his work in supporting the Montgomery canal—a beautiful waterway that runs through Montgomeryshire and instils that mwynder Maldwyn, the spirit of Montgomeryshire.
I just want to say a few words about the Heulwen Trust, which I also have encountered, like Russell. It exists to bring sunshine and smiles to the lives of the vulnerable and less abled on board, with the wheelchair-accessible canal boat trips on the Montgomery canal. It began in 1975, when the Prince of Wales Committee, in partnership with the Variety Club of Great Britain, arranged for the apprentices of Cammell Laird to build a 70 ft canal boat specifically designed to carry disabled children. It is thought to be a world first. It was named Heulwen, which, as we all know, is Welsh for 'sunshine' and was launched by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. The scheme was set up to last 10 years, after which local people would assume responsibility to continue the good work.
The Heulwen Trust, as you've heard, was formed in 1985. It continues to be enthusiastically run by a team of volunteers. And, like Russell, I would like to echo the thanks to them for both what they do in relation to staffing the boats and also raising funds to continue the work that they do.I support the continued development of the Montgomery canal, and, once again, thank you to Russell George for bringing forward thisdebate. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

I call the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, to reply to the debate, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Russell George for raising the Montgomery canal project with us today? I know he's long championed this project, and has again highlighted the achievements of the many enthusiastic local volunteers who give so much of their time, energy and skills to the canal restoration project, which has been running now for many decades, as we've heard. It truly is a labour of love and a tribute to the commitment of everyone involved.
Canals were once the living arteries of the industrial revolution, linking quarries and industrial works to markets and ports through which Welsh products were transported to cities across the globe. Today, our canals remain important for us as symbols of our industrial heritage, drivers of economic generation, and as places where nature can flourish. They're also much-loved sources of recreation, offering opportunities for communities to participate in physical exercise by walking, running and cycling along the many miles of restored towpaths, as well as enjoying activities on the water itself.
Last November, I was delighted to have the opportunity to visit the Pontcysyllte aqueduct and canal, one of our four world heritage sites, and while I was there, I learned from those responsible for its management about the many benefits that the canal brings to the region. It's now 12 years since Pontcysyllte was made a world heritage site, and its popularity as a visitor destination has increased year on year to the point, prior to COVID, when it was seeing in excess of 300,000 visitors visiting the main aqueduct alone. The Llangollen canal is itself one of the busiest stretches of canal anywhere in the United Kingdom.
The Montgomery canal also plays an important role in the industrial history of mid Wales, and I'm pleased to see that it continues to play an important role today. The canal is a part of the living heritage of the region, along with other treasures such as the Welshpool and Llanfair light railway, Powis castle and the Powysland museum that give mid Wales its unique character, and which helps draw thousands of visitors each year. And while a walker passing through the region of the famous Offa's Dyke footpath might think of the region as being primarily rural, the canal and its associated quaysides and lime kilns reminds us that there were few parts of Wales that were not touched by the spread of industry in the recent past.
The increasing number of visitors and canal users illustrates what a draw historic canals can be, because tourism is an important part of the regional economy, as recognised in our regional economic framework, published last year. Getting tourism right at a local level, whilst ensuring that Wales can compete on the international stage, are key components of the 'Welcome to Wales' five-year strategy, which was published in January 2020. 'Welcome to Wales' sets the framework for growing the visitor economy, focusing on Wales's strengths: its landscapes, cultures and places. The strategy highlights two main ideas ofbro andbyd, 'bro' meaning local community, a sense of purpose and place, and 'byd' meaning international levels of quality, standards and ambition.
At the heart of tourism policy remain the three key areas that underpin all activity: sustainability, inclusivity and accessibility. The mid Wales growth deal includes a dedicated strand for tourism, within which the Montgomery canal restoration is one of the projects under consideration for funding, as a result of the bid by the Montgomery canal partnership, which I know was supported by Russell George. One of the particular opportunities presented by the canals is that they connect places and people that can be catalysts for productive partnerships. Tourism benefits from linking sites together, and it can also be a productive way to share conservation experience and skills.
Canals are just one of the more visible reminders of our industrial heritage, but to understand and enjoy them fully, it's also important to consider the places to which they connect and run through. And the work undertaken recently in the preparation of the Pontcysyllte aqueduct and canal world heritage site management plan emphasises the importance of connections and partnership working, and this is equally important for other canals.
I'm glad to hear that the Montgomery canal benefits from a strong partnership that brings together organisations with varied interests in the canal. Visit Wales continues to work with the partnership, providing them with advice and support and promoting the canal alongside other regional heritage attractions. Visit Wales has also provided funding for projects to improve towpaths and public access.
I've focused on the heritage values of the canal, but of course part of its international status is for nature conservation as a special area of conservation for aquatic flora, and I'm aware that the success of this has benefited from a Natura 2000 grant of almost £250,000 to ensure the ongoing management of this important nature resource.
It's also important to recognise and commend the work of the volunteers that we've talked about earlier. Since taking up my role as Deputy Minister, it's been my pleasure to meet many groups and individuals with a passion for their heritage who work tirelessly to conserve and protect historic sites of all periods and to share them with their communities. The collective knowledge, skills and passion of groups and individuals such as these cannot be underestimated, not only for their contributions to heritage or historical research, but for what they deliver for their communities. The physical and social benefits of physical activity and volunteering are well understood, and projects like this demonstrate how our historic environment and heritage assets provide excellent opportunities to put this into practice. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

And I look forward to seeing many of you next week.

The meeting ended at 18:36.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Alun Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the current process of designating sites of special scientific interest?

Julie James: Natural Resources Wales is responsible for designating SSSI's where sites are of special interest by reason of their flora, fauna, geological, geomorphological or physiographical features. Joint Nature Conservation Committee guidelines informs the selection but are also intended as a public statement of the selection principles for all interested parties.

John Griffiths: How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to tackle climate change?

Julie James: We are working closely with local authorities across a range of programmes and strategically through the partnership council for Wales and the decarbonisation strategy panel.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Mike Hedges: Will the Minister make a statement on the development of Welsh-medium education in Swansea?

Jeremy Miles: Swansea have a target to grow their Welsh-medium education provision by at least 8 per cent over the next 10 years. They've recently consulted on their Welsh in education strategic plan that sets out how they propose to achieve that. They're due to submit that plan at the end of this month.

Gareth Davies: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure there are no disruptions to education provision due to COVID-19 during the current academic year?

Jeremy Miles: I provided all schools with two planning days at the start of this term to enable them to plan and prepare for the return of learners. We continue to monitor the position closely and are in regular discussion with local authorities and unions to maximise learning and minimise disruption.

Rhianon Passmore: Will the Minister provide an update on what community facilities are available in Islwyn as a result of the 21st century schools programme?

Jeremy Miles: All projects funded under the sustainable communities for learning programme are required to use their facilities effectively both for their pupils and their local communities. In the Islwyn area in particular, new school sport facilities at Rhiw Syr Dafydd, Blackwood and Islwyn High schools are available for community use.

Samuel Kurtz: Will the Minister provide an update on the funding opportunities available to rural schools in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire?

Jeremy Miles: School funding in Wales is provided through the revenue support grant. It is for local authorities to determine allocation. Further targeted funding is provided through additional Welsh Government grants. The majority of education funding is available to all schools, including rural schools. The small and rural schools grant of £2.5 million is available this financial year.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change

Laura Anne Jones: What plans does the Welsh Government have to increase the number of car-charging points on older housing stock?

Lee Waters: We have recently published the action plan that accompanies the 'Electric Vehicle Charging Strategy for Wales'. The documents set out how we plan to facilitate the increase in the provision of the various types of charging infrastructure required to encourage and keep pace with the adoption of electric vehicles.

Huw Irranca-Davies: How will the Minister embed the sustainable transport hierarchy across all Welsh Government policy portfolios?

Lee Waters: The sustainable transport hierarchy is embedded in our key policy documents including 'Net Zero Wales', 'Planning Policy Wales' and the Wales transport strategy. These set out the requirements for the sustainable transport hierarchy to be followed when planning new developments and when making decisions on projects and infrastructure.